Shroud of the Avatar: Cloth Overland Map Will Be Removed; 3D Overland Map to Return
I was a bit surprised to see this post from Starr Long on the Shroud of the Avatar forums yesterday. As some of you are probably aware, the overland map that was shown off in Release 4 and Release 5 was…not popular with everyone. It was, at the very least, different:
It’s a difference that…didn’t appeal to everyone, a fact that Long acknowledges:
As many of you may have noticed, our current version of the map looks different than the videos of prototypes we showed off during the earlier stages of our project. It was also the first time any of you got to interact with it, and the functionality of it was less than what was in the videos of prototypes you had seen.
The combination of art style change and lack of some expected functionality caused some concern, which is completely understandable. A few vocal community members even called for a class action lawsuit against us.
Because Internet, I suppose. Suffice it to say that while the cloth map style did have its defenders, and while some — myself included — expressed no particular fondness or dislike for either the cloth or the 3D style, the sudden nature of the stylistic change coupled with the dramatic reduction in functionality went over poorly with many, some of whom made a royal ruckus about it.
And of course, the question of why the change was made was raised. Long attempts to address this as well:
Our first attempt at the map was about trying to represent a very zoomed out view of the world with characters scaled up to gigantic size in a nod to the original Ultimas’ dual scale world. We were also attempting to automatically generate the terrain from data. We ran into several big issues.
The first was that the automatically generated terrain just did not look very good and we literally spent a couple of months trying to make it look better. It was not very flexible and the river and road pathways felt very “canned” and constrained, not natural at all. You can’t tell because of the lower resolution of the videos, but it really did not meet the standards we have for our visuals, especially the water. The next issue we ran into was scaling assets like trees, characters, etc. Simply scaling the assets meant for full scenes ended up looking really bad when they were shrunk down, and in most cases, did not work in that perspective.
Another issue we ran into was that the creature AI and pathfinding necessary to make the encounters work had to be completely different than how those systems worked in the main game. This made us very nervous about how much time it was going to take to make two versions of two major systems, so we started considering delaying some of those features until post Episode 1, which we mentioned in a video hangout.
It is also worth noting that the original programmer who worked on the map left soon after the Kickstarter campaign (it was a friendly departure!), and the map work fell on Chris, who’s plate was already quite full as the Tech Director! We got OneandOnly to jump in and work with Stephen Daniele to provide the version you have been playing with. The beauty of this style was that Stephen could create the map assets relatively quickly compared to the 3D assets we had been trying to use, so we are able to tweak and iterate fairly quickly. The team ended up falling in love with the style of the map, as it felt so much like the cloth map.
However, the cloth map is officially “no more”, as they say. Or nearly so:
The experiment with the cloth map solution solved a lot of problems that we ran into (described above) and we hoped it would be a change the community would embrace but that was not the case as we have seen.
We have heard your feedback and we are in the process of trying our best to recreate what was seen in our prototypes but to a higher visual quality. We will need to delay other features and content while we do this work so expect more schedule changes to R7 and beyond.
The implication I take away from this is that for Release 6, we will probably still be seeing the cloth map; I doubt that Portalarium can build a working, relatively non-buggy 3D overland map within the next three weeks. But for Release 7 and beyond…that’s over a month away…nearly two, really. It could happen.
The list of planned features, if nothing else, is pretty neat:
Here are our goals for the overworld map for Episode 1:
- Zoomed out 3D version of the world
- 3D Avatar animating and walking around in the overworld
- 3D NPCs animating and moving around the overworld
- Roving encounters that you can see moving around the overworld. If you intersect with them you are pulled into a scene.
- Surprise encounters that pull you into a scene.
- Indicators on map of world state including towns under siege, PVP encounters, etc.
- Terrain Types determine movement speed
- Party members visible on overworld (both moving around and indicators of which hex they have entered)
- Obscurance of unexplored areas (i.e. fog of war or something like that)
It is worth noting that there are at least two activities on the overworld that we have never planned for nor do we intend to implement:
- Resource harvesting
- Combat
Post Episode 1 we would like to add things like vehicle/mounted travel.
Of course, this change in map style — and functionality — means that other features will have to be delayed somewhat, a point that Long makes above in fact. Indeed, I would expect Shroud of the Avatar to miss its planned October release date for sure, given this.
And while I’m happy to see the 3D overland map return, because it really did look neat in the demos, I’d be remiss if I didn’t express some concern about how this will impact the final shape of the game. Portalarium’s resources — human and financial — are far, far from infinite, and it’s not unreasonable to expect that some other planned game features may not be fully developed by the time the game needs to be shipped. Indeed, it’s possible that features will have to be cut from the final game. And my worry is that this change in overland map art style will come at the expense of things like NPC schedules or world interactivity, features that are complex and time-consuming to implement and test by their very nature.
Given the choice, I’d take a cloth overland map and fully scheduled NPCs over a 3D overland map and far more static NPCs.
“A few vocal community members even called for a class action lawsuit against us.”
I hope Portalarium sent them a nasty letter. What an offensive and dishonorable way to treat a team who’s making a game for you. Hopefully LB was like, “Bring that shit; we’ll destroy you,” and put on some death metal and started pounding 40’s and doing lines. Okay, maybe not all that…
It does seem interesting that what began as an idea to facilitate more rapid development (the dual-scale map) has ultimately led to slower progress. Whatever route is chosen, using existing datasets is almost always the best policy. If they’re not quite right then add or remove properties, but the more systems that share datasets the smoother and faster development will be and the more “emergent” and less buggy the end product will be. My philosophy: Constant revision with an eye toward circumnavigating significant backtracking as experimental features are prototyped.
I’m glad about the return to the previous overworld map, but I don’t think the suggestion that it will significantly delay the workflow -should- be valid. The underlying code could be merged, or one could be chosen, and the rendering could use that logic and dataset. If the hex grid (cloth map) was the best candidate for logic, adapt the rendering logic of the old map to the hex grid. That sort of thing.
Maybe there’s a bottleneck in the number of programmers?
Errr, sorry, but I think it was the other way around. First we had the 3D map with lots of functionality and then they cut this feature from the game – even without telling anyone.
Also I think that being able to explore a living world is an important feature in the game and should never ever be cut from an RPG!
So I am very happy that they bring back the 3D map and the planned functionality.
Also they now have much more money and more time (with postponing the release of Episode 1) than a year ago, so creating this map should not compromise other features.
True… The one thing that bugs me about Starr’s post is the implication that the game will be further delayed because of this.
What was the additional functionality in the old map absent from the new map? I figured they had simply changed the way the map was presented (rendering logic and assets only), but that otherwise it was the same. I had assumed that the overworld map in SotA would have the same functionality as that of Ultimas IV and V; basically inventory management, moving, entering a point of interest, pursuing or avoiding enemies and holing up and camping. None of that is terribly complex considering the context essentially works like a board game with the mechanics largely being symbolic.
I was the person they were referring to and have deliberately demonised because I forced them to honour their promises, there was no ‘class action’, what I wrote in a single post was “In many countries the Overland Map promoted looked and felt nothing like what was promised and that could be construed as a trading standards fraud; however, I retain my faith in Richard Garriott and Ultima hope that is not so” That was it.
You could say I was the person directly responsible for the map change, why? Because I laid out my case politely truthfully, energy and vision my reward was banning from the forums.
Every story has a good guy and the bad guy, Portalarium have ensured due to their access to the press that I’m the bad guy.
SotA username: DNACowboy
Thanks for coming forward. I think your mention of their actions possibly being criminal was a bit over the top, but as a person who frequently uses hyperbolic language in my posts I can understand why you said it (see my earlier post here if you don’t believe me!). I can also understand why a company with responsibilities to its employees, their families, and the thousands of backers of their game might react to a comment like that with a bit of paranoid, overzealous judgment by banning your account.
In any case, thanks for being an unintentional martyr, as your sacrifice may indeed have been the catalyst for the reversion to the initial world map. The game will be better for it, and hopefully someone at Portalarium will eventually sit down calmly, take a stress pill, think things over and reinstate your account.
Creating enemies is easier than creating friends, but in the end the hostility will surround and overwhelm. So let’s all be friends. Mutual apologies and handshakes?
Yes, of course, friends forever, after all we are both Ultima fans right? 🙂
Regarding the Overland Map, between the two of us Lord Darkmoon and myself approached the ‘overland map’ issue with politeness, energy and the firm belief that Portalarium could do far better and owed it to their legion of fans to do so.
The issue really began at the start of R4, the map was such a shock, at first we assumed that the design was purely a place-holder; wrong, we quickly realized that was not the case after Starr stated that the map was purely a system to go from A to B, not the functional, interactive 3D map promoted in the Kickstarter campaign and prototype, we polled the community and realized that the majority felt the same way, the problem now was how would we effect change? the developer has a history of listening to their subscribers; however, the problem was though that they were very slow in reacting to the issues the map brought up. No matter how strident the feedback there was utter silence from the devs, it wasn’t until R5 that the first, very minimal response appeared, the problem was they still hadn’t got it, the team still seemed 100% wedded to the ‘paper map’ while the majority in the community wanted a map that functioned similar in concept to Civilization 5 , why Civ5? Because RG had specifically mentioned publicly in his Kickstarter video that Civ5 was how he saw the map being implemented in the SoTA world, essentially a zoomed out view of the world you inhabit, with roaming creatures liable to attack you, labeling areas or landmarks for cartography purposes and giving the player a definitive sense of his location in the world.
The major fan concern was the loss of immersion, lack of utility and the last-minute nature of this new ‘paper map’ concept, many alpha testers stated that they planned on exploring this wonderful new world not pressing a button to travel from A to B, Portalarium argued that less than 10% would be spent using a map system, the problem was for them though with their rushed idea the player would spend literally moments – essentially just watching the player-character in the form of a flag move from one part of the map to another, sort of like watching paint dry in fast forward, not the living, breathing world waiting to be explored.
Portalarium’s biggest problem was though that it was all last-minute and looked extremely amateur, that raised red flags for many subscribers who were also struggling with the worry about the graphical quality of the characters which seemed legacy rather than cutting edge and not indicative of Garriott’s other rpgs which were highly innovative.
Subsequently the team DID get it and have reverted to the 3D zoomed-out map promised, this will affect the development chronology but the final poll I ran confirmed that the subscribers were more than happy to wait for the best game Portalrium can deliver rather than keep to some arbitrary release date
In closing we got some good news:.
(Starr has recently announced that work has begun on improving the npc and player-character graphics) but the best news of all is the announcement that Alyssa Reuter has joined the team, Alyssa worked on Mass Effect, the Command & Conquer series and Loadout, here is her full resume: http://www.alyssareuter.com/resume/AlyssaReuter_2014_04_19.pdf
I would love to bring my enthusiasm and energy to the game via the SoTA network; however, only Starr can take that decision as it was him personally that had me banned.
Best wishes
DNA Cowboy
DNA Cowboy is lying about his claims.
From DNA Cowboy’s Twitter Account:
Guy reaches out to TIME magazine saying there is a class action lawsuit against Portalarium to get attention and presumably stir up shit–but wait, didn’t he just claim he didn’t say those things above? Ooops!
But hey, that’s cool. Maybe it was just a one off. A look at the Shroud of the Avatar website shows it’s clear he is a bit of an asshat there, too, describing himself as “SotA’s most vocal critic” in one of his first posts–really? (nice job, bro.) https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/sotas-most-vocal-critic-speaks-out.9999/
Aaaand, lots of the other posts are like that including a bunch of spam threads on the forums from him about the same topics over, and over again. As a normal user though I can’t seem to access them because most of them are closed–could it be that they have all been shut down? I wonder why that might have happened? Fortunately, at least some of the titles remain: “To be or Not to be: The map”, “Overland Map Poll”, amongst others.
These are at least better than his comments about SotA being a marketing scam, though: https://twitter.com/DNA_Cowboy/status/462553403806482432
I mean, just a quick look into “Steve Page’s” public accounts shows some pretty negative behaviors–and yea, some critical about SotA. Being critical is fine and all, but being a dick and claiming you’re a saint?
Oh, and the dude didn’t even give the thing he’s bitching about a chance–but was willing to complain about it until they changed it:
“I deliberately have not yet tried the map as I didn’t want it to negatively impact on my overall R5 impressions” https://shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/sotas-most-vocal-critic-speaks-out.9999/
Sheesh.
Made a bit of an edit at the end there. I don’t pretend to run a G-rated blog, but let’s keep the language in check even so.
WtFD said, “Made a bit of an edit at the end there. I don’t pretend to run a G-rated blog, but let’s keep the language in check even so.”
I’m against all censorship, but if there had to be a reason for editing that post it shouldn’t have been because of the F bomb, but because it was a personal insult against a site member. It’s one thing to argue, debate, etc., another to start throwing insults. Many sites will ban you for that.
So in the event the F bomb was in fact the reason for the edit, here’s what was said sans F bomb for the curious: “What a [F bomb]ing asshat.”
Something I’ve noticed for a while now is that, despite us all allegedly being infatuated with the Virtues and striving to be Avatars, Ultima fans are really quick to start slinging [S bomb] at each other and escalating dialogues into flame wars. Ironic.
You’re right, it was the personal attack more than the F-bomb.
@mattpeckham what investors got was nothing like Kickstarter marketing campaign. After massive backslash Starr has backtracked 100%— DNA Cowboy (@DNA_Cowboy) May 6, 2014
Yes, I did write that, but how is that lying?
It actually confirms everything I wrote, as for reaching out to Time saying there was a ‘class action’ put up or shut up please.
Just re-read your rant, all the ‘Overland Map’ threads were tied into one mega-thread for the devs to address no conspiracy there either.
As for ‘spam’, I think that you’re getting a little confused, spam isn’t discussing each release that’s progress and why on earth are you so hostile?
“I mean, just a quick look into “Steve Page’s” public accounts shows some pretty negative behaviors”
Again, please show me what ‘public accounts’ and what ‘negative behavior’?
I’ve always tried to be polite, non-judgmental and honest; however you seem intent on making me into some sort of bad guy, why? I have absolutely no idea.
“I mean, just a quick look into “Steve Page’s” public accounts shows some pretty negative behaviors”
Again, please show me what ‘public accounts’ and what ‘negative behavior’?
I’ve always tried to be polite, non-judgmental and honest; however you seem intent on making me into some sort of bad guy, why? I have absolutely no idea.
Update: okay, I found what I think some of your ill-informed rant was about, Dark Starr wrote this on 3rd May: https://www.shroudoftheavatar.com/forum/index.php?threads/navigation-through-new-britannia.10474/
DarkStarr wrote: ‘A few vocal community members even called for a class action lawsuit against us’
I mentioned that to Matt peckham on the SIXTH MAY who was covering Sota for Time, in other words I was repeating what DARKSTARR wrote I wasn’t ‘stirring’ anything up just reporting on what the DEVELOPER wrote as you see in the above link, but oh no you go off on one about how its all my fault which essentially makes my earlier points for me.
Thank you.
As for being a ‘recent member’, I suggest you check my profile, I have been commenting and offering input on SoTA since R3, the reason I described myself as being ‘ the most vocal critic’ was a swipe at myself, if you had actually gone on to read the post you would have discovered that I was being extremely positive about R5 but hey I can’t do your research for you.