Richard Garriott: Only My Team Can Create Ultima's True Heir
Ultima creator Richard Garriott threw down a rather big gauntlet at the feet of EA and BioWare Mythic in this recent tweet, which was made in reply to a request for his thoughts on the recent spate of legal actions Electronic Arts has taken against hosted downloads of Ultima 4 and the two Flash-based remakes thereof.
Thus spake Lord British!
And at least as far as the first sentence goes, he’s right: he has no power over the Ultima name, franchise, or IP anymore, and cannot shape EA’s plans for it in any way save one: as the owner of the name “Lord British”, he can control whether that character appears in any future Ultima games any EA studio might one day choose to make and release.
But is he right in the second sentence? I don’t dispute that he and his team at Portalarium could probably produce a fine spiritual successor to the original series…but does it necessarily follow that his is the only team which is capable of doing so? Two powerful pieces of evidence — Serpent Isle (with which he was minimally involved) and Ultima Underworld 2 (With which he was not involved at all) — come to mind as arguments against his assertion. And indeed, it has been argued here before, by myself and by others, that Garriott himself left Ultima in a position which was, largely, post-Avatar, post-Britannia, and post-Lord British…and that, consequently, another team could indeed pick up and run with the Ultima name and turn out a worthy successor to the original series.
The comments are open, Dragons and Dragonettes. What do you think?
Three powerful pieces – you forgot Lazarus. 🙂
@Infinitron Well played, sir. Well played.
Actually, Lazarus’ omission was deliberate; I wanted to limit myself to just Origin-produced or Origin-published titles. Although you are right; in the broader sense, the insanely high quality of Lazarus is also good evidence that a worthy Ultima can be crafted by a team which Richard Garriott is not part of.
There are many talented individuals/indies and larger studios who could make a game, whether large or small, that would be worthy of the title “Ultima”. Some to one degree or another already have.
The Ultima series and spinoffs span a massive range of game characteristics. The stories, graphics, music, world simulation and culture/ethos of each Ultima game have been everywhere from practically non-existent to as yet unmatched. So then, what is an Ultima, exactly? Is The Elder Scrolls IV more like an Ultima than Ultima III for example?
That said, I’m glad Garriot responded to EA’s antics. Reading his words warmed my breast, much as a good shot of liquor or a much needed compliment. They’re fighting words, and I’m ready for Garriott to bring the pain.
So does Garriott own the rights to the word Akalabeth?
I think he’s full of it. His plans for portalarium don’t sound much to me and his work for tabula rasa didn’t exactly make me excited.
Personally I think he hasn’t got something like Ultima in himself anymore…
Forgive writing style or any grammatical errors, for I am very tired as I write this…
I believe that only Richard Garriott can write and/or direct a direct “true” sequel to Ultimas that have already been created. Ultima X and up would have to have at least a signing off by Garriott. Spinoffs can be created by anyone, though S.I. and UW2 were signed off by Garriott; they were given his stamp of approval.
I would never consider my Savage Empire remake a true Ultima in any sense of the word without some kind of approval from Richard Garriott. The project is a labor of love for a series that I have been in love with for two thirds of my life. In a way, I am paying homage and am hoping to attract people to a long dead series. Though no matter the quality of my efforts or the results, it will not be a true Ultima, just as Lazarus and other Ultima projects are not true Ultimas (even though Lazarus is awesome!).
With all of that said, I think that Garriott dropped the ball in many ways. Sequels contradicted each other and there were many loose ends because he and his team failed to track details (this is a problem with many series, not just games made by Origin). They bit off more than they could chew which led to VIII and IX being pale in comparison to VII. Though a post that I just read (on this site I believe)is true in that Garriott didn’t have to scrap a beta version of IX, replacing it with the crap we have now. Origin could have updated it with a 3d wrapper, and we would all have been blown away. Perhaps Origin would still exist if that had happened, and we would be playing Ultima XIII by now.
However, a true Ultima X can only be made with Garriott involvement. I think that he would avoid making the mistakes from the past. Something is definitely afoot, as indicated by news items on Aiera, EA’s actions with regards to Ultima IV, and now this from Garriott. Can EA publish an Ultima game? Of course, we have Lords of Ultima, a very non-Ultima Ultima game. Would it be a good Ultima game? That would remain to be seen. Would the gaming community or Ultima fan base accept it? I will load up a game of Gothic while that is debated…
Well said Dominus. Sad, but probably true. Though I would love it if Garriott found his old self again.
Garriot could do it if his heart was in it. But it’s been a long time since he made a good game, Ultima or not. So we’ll just have to see. He was big talk when his last games came out too and they have sort of flopped..
YES, he is correct. This is like fox news debates over silly things. It’s like debating, “Is the sky blue?” well sometimes it’s gray, sometimes it’s pink, at night it’s black. But we all know, the sky can be blue. And is a moot point, as this is a moot point.
SI never felt like an ultima to me. It was far too rushed, ultima 8 and ultima 9 both felt too rushed as well as platformers. I don’t feel as though these games would have been released in the state they were if RG had the final say on things and had more hands on with the production.
YES OF COURSE THE GUY THAT CREATED AND MADE ULTIMA FRANCHISE POPULAR WILL MAKE A BETTER ULTIMA GAME. EA SCREWS UP EVERYTHING THEY TOUCH, WESTWOOD FOR ONE. ORIGIN FOR TWO. EA RUSHES TITLES AND GIVES NO CARE FOR THEIR CUSTOMERS.
This is not debatable.
Micro Magic:
I think it’s eminently debatable, and could rattle off any number of games that EA’s various studios have produced which are, by any measure, top-notch games. They may not be games that are your personal cup of tea, but that’s beside the point; there is no accounting for taste, and taste alone does not measure the quality of a game.
It’s also worth noting, as has been enumerated before elsewhere, that Origin as an EA studio produced some of the best games in its history. You may not think of Serpent Isle as a true Ultima, but you are in a very small minority in saying as much; it is generally regarded — by fans and industry professionals alike — as the high point of the series. Ultima 8 created its share of controversy, but keep in mind that while the game was missing some parts because EA imposed a timeline on its development, the game we got was still very much the game that Origin envisioned. As Sergorn Dragon pointed out elsewhere, an Ultima 8 made by an independent Origin might have included Tempestry magic, the Birthplace of Moriens, and what-else-have-you…but it still would have been an isometric, area-based platformer because that is the game that Garriott intended to make.
Ultima 9 is more controversial still, but even it is still rather close to the game that Garriott intended to deliver. It wasn’t EA who told Origin to restart the project twice, and it wasn’t EA who told Origin to scrap the Bob White Plot. Garriott and others at Origin made those choices, leading us up to the game we eventually got. EA’s contribution, as far as making the game bad goes, was to basically tell Origin that they’d wasted too much time on the game already, and should either publish the damn thing or scuttle it. So we can blame them, partly, for the bugs…but not for much else about Ultima 9.
And keep in mind that you’re leaving out a number of other fine titles that Origin published whilst under the EA label: Wing Commander 3/4/Prophecy, for example, plus two Crusader games and a handful of other titles.
Does this mean EA is innocent? No. Losing Westwood was hard, and losing Origin even harder, and certainly EA played a role in the downfall of both of these fine studios. But equally, the studios themselves were not passive participants in their own fates; they share the blame for their own downturns and deaths.
Don’t get me wrong: I do think Garriott has it in him to churn out a grand successor — a social network game, yes but even so… — to the Ultima series. I think he has it in him. But does it necessarily follow that he is the only developer who can weave that magic? No, I don’t think so.
One more point. I love the way RG says this with such confidence. RG is the man, he’s been to outer space you guys. He’s so cocky and cool. Didn’t he say he was going to kick everyone’s ass before? Man this guy rocks.
Agreed. Hail to the King, baby.
Weird how fans have turned on Garriott yet embrace EA, Bioware/Mythic/random-acquired-studio who haven’t done a damn thing for the Ultima series other than finance its failure and drop oh-so-tantalizing clues about how they’re possibly (bated breath!) going to capitalize on its good name.
I guess the remakes and mods aren’t enough; people want something with the corporate stamp of legitimacy on it. Or the mods and remakes simply aren’t good enough to satisfy, which is a real slap in the face of the community.
I don’t care if a game is ray traced on a server farm and streamed to my puny computer in 1080p at 60 FPS, AAA titles bring nothing to the table other than eye candy and a chopped up pseudo-story to match my limited actions.
I’m beginning to think that the idea of Ultima is greater than Ultima itself, and that perhaps no one can recreate what we felt in those fond days when we played. Hopefully Garriott or some studio can prove me wrong.
Sanctimonia:
It’s equally weird how fans continue to embrace Garriott even though none of his post-Ultima titles ever recaptured the creative magic that defined the Ultima series. I’m not in a rush to give up on the guy, but one has to keep in mind that his record as a developer is far from perfect. That’s not to say he can’t push out a grand old game that is a worthy Ultima successor…but I think it’s beyond arrogant to presume that he is the only developer so capable, especially given the ample evidence to the contrary both from within the list of canon Ultima titles and out of the contributions of the fan community.
I don’t think that’s the case…but I think it’s fair to say that many Ultima fans would like to see new Ultima stories being told, rather than just see remake after remake get pushed out. Not that the remakes aren’t often great (Lazarus, I mean…c’mon, it’s awesome!)…but they’re still just re-tellings of the old stories. I know for a fact that I want a new story; that’s part of why I work on Ultima Return and intend to return to Lost Sosaria someday. So if there is a possibility that we might see a new Ultima story emerge…I’m keen to do what I can to support that.
Depends on the title, I think. Not that there aren’t games out there which are, largely, guilty of this. But there are also some darn good games out there which feature the AAA eye candy experience but also throw a truly excellent story at the player. Many of these have come up in recent discussions, as I recall.
Just be mindful that if you are ever proven wrong, it will probably be a bigger studio — maybe even (gasp!) an EA studio — that does it. (Although, granted, Runic did well by Torchlight, so don’t take my saying so as a complete dismissal of the power of talented indie devs.)
Damn, WtF is ripping it up this fine evening! 🙂
On counterpoint one, I embrace Garriott seemingly blindly because I owe him my passion for game design, which is a debt I can never fully repay. Ultima wasn’t by a long shot the first game I’d ever played and I was programming games before I’d ever heard of Ultima, but it was the first that ignited a powder keg in my soul for what I wanted my short time on this planet to be about. We all forge our separate paths as we march toward our inevitable demise and history begins to chip away at the evidence of our existence. Garriott lit the torch that showed me my destiny. I know he’s human, as we all are, but I always extend to him the benefit of the doubt.
On counterpoint two, I would not only like to see a retelling of the old stories (same but with logically interpolated data), but also new stories. I think it’s sad the way things wound up after Ultima VII. It’s almost non-canonical as crazy as it is. Canon is overrated, I think, and I’d love to see what Lost Sosaria and Ultima Return have to offer. In fact, it’d be great to see some fan fiction about Ultima (nothing epic, just the usual adventuring). Where’s the repository for that sort of thing, if there is one?
On counterpoint three, meh, the reason I don’t play modern games, -at all–, is because 99% of them are crap. I get burned nearly every time. I don’t want to be spoon fed plot elements as I go from savepoint to savepoint. I need gameplay. Gameplay that doesn’t involve shooting people and stupid shit like that over and over. It’s a matter of taste, as you mentioned, but that’s just me. I’m getting older, and I’ve long been tired of the crap that’s been pushed since the 80’s. If the goal is to shoot/stab/etc. a lot of people, just spare me the plot, thank you.
On counterpoint four, I would bet on that too. A bigger studio means more specialists, managers, and financial investment. If it’s an AAA title then all that is necessary. I do think however that the current mentality of throwing millions of dollars at something has a limited benefit, and that smaller teams are just as capable (if not more) of creating a groundbreaking game. When you realize just where all that money goes, it doesn’t seem quite as special from a core game mechanic perspective. Eye candy enthusiasts be damned, it’s the mechanics that matter to me.
Ripping it up? Eh, maybe. I keep seeing these old tropes — “EA ruins everything!” being perhaps the most egregious — trotted out which simply don’t stand up under the harsh light of historical fact. Not, as I’ve said, that EA is blameless…but then too, neither was Origin. I guess sooner or later, I’ve just gotten tired of hearing the anti-EA line as much as I have (despite having once espoused it myself!). To put it “virtuously”, I think it’s unjust and dishonest.
I will grant your first point, though, and I’ll add to it by remarking that I can think of probably a half-dozen game developers (almost all at EA…heh) who can say the same thing. There is no denying that Garriott and Ultima were beyond influential to many people, myself included.
To your second point, just remember who decided to take the post-Ultima 7 titles in the direction that they went, which you describe as non-canon. Because it wasn’t EA…it was Origin, and Garriott in particular. As to Ultima fan fiction, I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Dragon Press.
I’ll grant you your third point without comment; we have variant tastes in games. To be fair, even in a game I don’t much care to play, I’ll acknowledge expert craftsmanship when it’s there to be seen. Of course, craft along won’t get me behind the keyboard to play the damn thing, but…
I’ll also grant your fourth point to a certain extent; I’m leery of the “big budget” direction that game development has taken. To be fair, I think that even a mediocre game delivers more value for the invested money than does a mediocre big-budget movie, but that could just be my general disdain for Hollywood talking. Though I suspect it’s that and something else.
Anyhow…we can agree or not; doesn’t really matter to me. What gets my bird is the stuff that just isn’t true, or is a very brutal distortion of the truth. Yeah, EA has made their share of mistakes…but given the choice, I’m still happier that they control the Ultima IP than any of the other major publishers. I do enjoy a number of the games that they produce, and I think that despite their origins in Trip Hawkins and their less-than-ideal treatment of Origin, they really have emerged — since then — as one of the better publishers in the industry. I won’t say they’re on the side of angels, but I generally see them as being…well, pretty good.
And remember: This remake community exists, in no small part, because EA takes a very relaxed view of fan mods which touch on — and/or directly modify — its IP and the titles comprising same. I very much doubt that I could keep this site running were Ultima the property of any other publisher. And no, that doesn’t mean that anyone absolutely has to like EA all that much, though I would hope that it would at least give some of the more rabidly anti-EA persons pause before they opt to shit all over the company one more time. It would be within EA’s legal rights –not to mention phenomenally easy for them — to shutter every single project on this site, if the mood struck them. But barring the rare exception, they don’t do that sort of thing. That has to be worth a bit tongue once in a while, right?
I do indeed hope he does create a true heir. Though he is a hero for starting something amazing (especially at such a young age!), I feel that it has been about 20 years since the last true heir for Ultima. I’ve been waiting a long time for it.
Something weird happened when Batlin opened that wall of lights — the world went topsy turvy and nothing has made sense since. Balance hasn’t been restored, and the banes of chaos are running loose. “See how I reward those who fail me!”
(I’m saying that everything up to (and excluding) the second half of Serpent Isle as published is a “true” Ultima — to me at least, with only bits and pieces of “true ultima” clumsily embedded in what followed. This is my opinion and interpretation of the state of “true” Ultima.)
And I sincerely hope that these mythic guys can successfully capture the spirit of the title Ultima and do the impossible: appease us hypercritical fans — now that they’re in a position to make such attempts. And I would be beyond pleased if this sparked LB to do so as well! There has certainly been a void for a very long time.
Yes, two separate posts in response to two separate posts. Awesomely respectful to the people here, and consequently entering the realm of “ripping it up”. 🙂 Things like that make this a hell of a site, if not unique.
I know what you’re saying. As much as I’d like to for all my “rage against the machine” tendencies, I do not want to rip EA a new asshole and I don’t think they deserve it either. I was trying to make a point of their irrelevance with respect to Ultima other than financial backing. They didn’t exert creative control over the series (kudos to them for that), they just enabled its further existence. Sorta like a kind but naive mom who gives money to their kid hoping they’ll buy lunch, but they go out and spend it on drugs instead. They may have thought the drugs would make their music better, but they were wrong.
All of that adds up to it being Origin’s fault, not EA’s. Yes, it was Origin’s fault, and probably Garriott’s specifically. The wheels had already flown off the wagon, EA just saw it too late and was banking on old information.
“I will grant your first point, though, and I’ll add to it by remarking that I can think of probably a half-dozen game developers (almost all at EA…heh) who can say the same thing. There is no denying that Garriott and Ultima were beyond influential to many people, myself included.”
That is true, however I feel almost like his work was a second father to me. My parents are and always were wonderful, but Garriott’s work affected me profoundly in many ways. For one I was grossly entertained. In an open world that asked ME what I’D like to do, I indulged in acts of good and evil, killing villagers and reveling in the response of the populace as the guards attacked and the civilians fled. The freedom intrigued me and with the virtues I was infatuated.
I’m probably “crazy” but I found the Eight Virtues comforting after I’d abandoned organized religion. I know you’re religious (as is everyone I know, including my parents, brother, wife and relatives), so we won’t argue that, but we can probably agree that we all need something good to believe in. Ultima was that good thing for me. Ethics, not morals, was the lesson of the day.
Modern games don’t scale proportionately. They don’t follow Moore’s law. They’re like an dead body with fresh skin stitched around it: disgusting and surreal (with exceptions as you noted).
In any case, I see your frustration with people here constantly bashing EA. As you said of yourself, so have I been guilty of doing so. Enough of that crap! Best wishes to the spirit of Ultima in whatever form it takes, and by whoever creates it.
“And remember: This remake community exists, in no small part, because EA takes a very relaxed view of fan mods which touch on — and/or directly modify — its IP and the titles comprising same. I very much doubt that I could keep this site running were Ultima the property of any other publisher. And no, that doesn’t mean that anyone absolutely has to like EA all that much, though I would hope that it would at least give some of the more rabidly anti-EA persons pause before they opt to shit all over the company one more time. It would be within EA’s legal rights –not to mention phenomenally easy for them — to shutter every single project on this site, if the mood struck them. But barring the rare exception, they don’t do that sort of thing. That has to be worth a bit tongue once in a while, right?”
Hmm, me thinks thou hast editing capabilities beyond our own! Thou hast edited thy response by appending said data above!
But yes, I agree. As I tried to say, I’m not bashing EA. At all. My points were about other things. God help us if they start shutting things down. Fortunately Sancti is out of their reach now should that ever be the case.
Ultima Aiera: Where We Can’t Say Enough Good Things About Bioware, Ultima 9, Furries, Felicia Day or our Overlords at EA.
This comment amused me greatly. +1000 Internets to Fitzowen, gatekeeper and sole arbiter of who is and is not a fan of Ultima!
Then again: Or perhaps Fitzowen is right! Perhaps I am actually John “JR” Riccitiello, CEO and evil mastermind of Electronic Arts! Perhaps I was not content to simply steer the series into the trashbin of history, leaving only a mockery of it behind in the form of the wretched Ultima Online. Perhaps I laughed all the way to the bank, carrying the hard-earned dollars of Ultima fans in a huge bag along with me, while feeding them progressively worse episodes of their once-beloved series. And perhaps it was in fact me, and others before and astride me, who influenced every design decision Origin made, pushing the games deeper and deeper into the realms of nonsense and the bizarre.
Oh, and perhaps I am a Satanist too, who uses my successful games publishing company as a front for my demonic cult and as a means of ensuring that I can maintain a steady diet of baby seals and panda steaks. Also, I leave my lights on during Earth Hour.
But in reality: I’m just a guy, you know? I live in Canada, not California. I’ve never even met EA’s CEO, though I have bumped elbows with a few EA employees (mostly BioWare guys). My cousin works for EA as a programmer. I’ve never eaten panda meat, or seal meat. I’m Catholic, rather than Satanist. And, um…I am not (to the best of my knowledge) in the employ or on the payroll of Electronic Arts, although I have applied for a few jobs with various EA studios (mostly BioWare and its partner studios).
I do leave my lights on during Earth Hour, though, if I can be bothered to remember when that is. I think I actually missed it this year.
What was the last Ultima that RG actually truly worked on? U5, U6, U7? I think it was U5. He may have drafted the overall story for the others but I think he didn’t work on those. I think he became an accountant iinstead, I don’t know though…
@Fitzowen, bah
Iolo, damn man, how have you been? How’s Gwenno? j/k
In response to your comment, however, Just Damn(TM). Perhaps we should all have profiles with our employer, job history, etc. I’ve wondered myself who works for who, and who has an interest in promoting certain parties. I suspect there’s nothing formal here, but who knows… In any case that’s a hell of an accusation (though I’ve wondered myself sometimes).
@Dominus:
If true that explains why the shit quotient is so much higher after Ultima V. Thanks for pointing that out.
As far as being an accountant, that was either his brother’s job or EA’s, take your pick.
I dunno… From what he (Richard Garriott) has said of the game he is making, I am thinking it will be a good game. But the truth is, it doesn’t really seem like an Ultima. I’m hoping it has many Ultima-esque parts, but a large part of Ultima was based on the fact it was single-player. So I wouldn’t really say that what he is making is a “spiritual successor” to the Ultima series. I’m thinking of it as a potentially awesome game by the creator of Ultima (not another Ultima).
An actual “spiritual successor” would have to be single-player. Of course, he used the word “heir”, and heirs don’t always follow in the original’s footsteps. I think there are plenty of people that could create a successor to the Ultima games. Honestly though, if I was given the time/money to make a huge RPG with a team, I would put a lot of things in it like Ultima had, but I would have a lot different too. Ultima isn’t perfect. Not even close. It just happened to do a lot of the things that I look for in a game better than most others.
I mean, people hold Ultima IV up as a shining example of awesomeness, and yet most of the people in the game are random NPCs that have nothing to do with anything. I mean, a guy singing “Home on the Range”? Ultima VI was the first time I found NPCs actually seemed like people, and Ultima VII improved on that. But even those lacked a lot. The companions in Serpent Isle mostly had depth because we had gotten to know them in previous Ultima games. You can’t actually talk to them about anything. A perfect game, IMO, would need to have a lot more detail behind the companions (Bioware does companions really well usually, for example).
Ultima tended to have a lot of interactivity and systems that other RPGs (at least in the past) haven’t. But they didn’t always do them very well. In Serpent Isle you could only sell a very limited amount of items to a very limited number of people, for example. Does it make sense that someone would want some old leather armour, and yet noone wants this nice piece of plate? Huge amounts of detail went into some things, but others tended to be basic to the point of annoyance.
I think if you picked and chose the best parts from all the Ultima games, you’d end up with something amazing. But the games themselves tended to have flaws (which anyone who isn’t a Dragon tends to give me grief about when I say how awesome Ultima is). I think I’d choose:
– Magic like in Ultima 8
– Stores like in Ultima 6
– Companions like in Ultima 7: Black Gate (of the Ultima games, I think it was the best for Companions)
– Main quest locations like in Serpent Isle
– Random other locations like in Ultima 6
– Well-designed, unique locations like in Ultima Underworld 2 (Killorn Keep and others seemed more like real places than any other Ultima locations I can think of)
– Ships from Ultima 6
– Main story from 6, 7, SI or 8
But even chosing the best things, there is still improvement to be made.
Thepal: Those are both good lists, and I mostly agree with them (although for me, Ultima 6 beats Ultima 7 for sheer cool; I think it had the better world, especially where dungeons were concerned). In terms of features from each game, however, I find I mostly agree.
Though to be fair, I also prefer the Ultima 6 magic system to that of Ultima 8, although that’s probably my general disdain for magic systems talking. I almost never use magic — or its equivalent (e.g. biotics in Mass Effect) — in any RPG I play, and my non-use only increases with the complexity of the magic system in question. Which is why I like the one in Ultima 6, because it’s very simple and doesn’t involve jiggering with talismans and foci.
I love it when game creators/company troll each other 😛
That being said, I think the whole “Only Richard Garriott can recapture the Ultima spirit” is bullcrap. It’d be akin to saying that only George Lucas can create proper Star Wars, only Chris Roberts could do a good Wing Commander, or only Gene Roddenberry could have created proper Star Trek. While in all of these cases the original creators certainly had their own particular vision of their universe (which is probably true about Richard Garriott as well) – there has been plenty of examples in both that other people could create quality work on these universes even without their imput.
So why would Ultima be an exception?
I’ve said it before, but I find it somewhat funny how people are embracing Garriott here. I still remember how much flack and criticism he got over the last fifteen years, and there are “branches” of the Ultima fandom (on the Horizons Tavern for instance) who’d probably rather have Garriott not touch an Ultima ever game.
Personally I have a huge respect for him, he’s one of my videogame heroes. But as far as creating a “spiritual successor to Ultima”, I think he still has everything to prove. Need I remind you all that Tabula Rasa was meant to be a spiritual sequel to Ultima as well initially? No matter what might think of his last videogame venture quality-wise… you can’t argue Tabula Rasa had nothing of Ultima in it (albeit the original version did felt very Ultima-ish I’ll admit :P)
I certainly hope Richard Garriott will nail his New Britannia game, and the whole prospect excites me very much. But at this point there is nothing that can truly allows us to gauge if his project would be more Ultima-ish than Ultima 4Ever could be. For all we know they could both create great spiritual successor to Ultima. Or they could both fail miserable indeed.
Well, in the few years since Mythic has been in charge of Ultima Online, they have brought more Ultima related lore and content in the game that Origin themselves EVER did while they were handling UO.
For me this count for something.
I don’t think it is that fans have turned their back on Garriott (at least not here for the most part) and are embracing EA. This is more about the fact that the EA bashing has to stop because it is just dumb, immature and silly.
The whole “EA is the devil!” kind of discourse is just getting very old, especially since looking at the last few years it seems very clear to me that EA is far from being the big bad overlord intent on destroying videogames that most of the bashers are making it out to be. Indeed if EA is to be considered as an “Evil” at all, I would argue that it’s definitely at this point in time one of the “lesser evils” of the videogames industry.
The thing is that going and blaming EA about how they ruined Origin and what else… is just a convenient lie we told to ourselves because we don’t want to face the truth that our favorite company/creators actually had a big share of responsibility in their own downfall – and it’s just so easy to blame it all in the evil corporate companies and pose Origin as the poor innocent victim. I know this because I used to be a big EA basher myself. Then I’ve matured and realized that things aren’t as simple, nor as black&white as the Internet wants us to think.
And the irony is that this attitude continues to this day. Just look at the Dragon Age II controversies: “EA is ruining Dragon Age and Bioware!” “EA is forcing Bioware to make consolified games!” “EA is the devil!”. Except, this is basically as much bullcrap as the Origin bits.
Why? Because while you can legitimately blame EA for the short timeframe in which Dragon Age II was developed: that’s about it.
Bioware have been “consolifying” their games ever since Knights of the Old Republic which also turned consoles into their main market – and if anything Dragon Age II is the perfect continuation of the kind of game they’ve been doing for almost a decade. Nevermind the fact that Bioware could easily have just made a Dragon Age II that would have been a glorified Dragon Age Origins taking the same approach to design and the same basic engine and gameplay – only with a new plot.
Actually even the short development timeframe sounds sort of an excuse to me. If Obsidian can create a huge and ambitious game like New Vegas in 1.5 years just by using the Fallout 3 tech, there is no reason why Bioware couldn’t have done so with the DAO tech if they wanted to. But they changed stuff, because… that’s what the core of Bioware’s buyers (ie: NOT hardcore PC gamers) wanted. But since old school Bioware fans can’t seem to cope with the fact that well… Bioware has changed and may not be interest in doing old school Baldur’s Gate kind of game anymore… they blame EA because it’s easier.
Nevermind the fact that if it wasn’t for EA… the Mass Effect games would most likely still be Xbox exclusives, Dragon Age might not have released at all, and The Old Republic would most likely have been cancelled by now.
So when I look at it this way, I’m almost tempted to say thank you EA. But I guess this is just me sucking up to my evil Overlord. (And they’re not even paying me! Damn!)
Actually this is incorrect.
The last Ultima Richard Garriott truly worked on was… Ultima IX actually, which he directed himself (even if his return in the director’s chair after the Del Castillo debacble was arguably a desperate attempt to save what still could).
And before that, it was Ultima VII, which he directed as well (and it showed – there’s a reason this was the game more focused on the virtual world aspect). And he also directed Ultima VI of course, though Ultima V was probably the last game where he did most of the game alone – the fact that Ultima VI marked the beginning of the PC era changed a lot of things in how Ultima were being made.
Now after Ultima VII he has less a hand in Ultima games because the EA buyout kind of forced him to take a more corporate role at Origin which he resented. But the fact of the matter is that except Ultima VIII where he had a more reduced role (but he was still there: you can blame all the jumping on account that Garriott was a huge Prince of Persia back then), he directed all the other core Ultima games (I consider Serpent Isle more of a spin-off).
You know, while I know this isn’t your intent, the fact that you thought that Garriott had no involvement in Ultima since Ultima V is *very* representative of the disinformation that has been spread by bashers who always try their best to diminish the original creator’s involvement in their creation after he has created what they consider a disappointing work.
There were a lot of people at the time of Ultima IX’s release who did their best to convince the fandom that Richard Garriott was a fraud and had little actual involvement in Ultima games.I actually remember one guy at Ultima IX Horizons who said that if Ultima was ever really good it was thanks to Warren Spector, and especially Ultima VII. Nevermind the fact that Spector did not work at –all- on Ultima VII, which really was Garriott’s baby through and through.
Oh well…
I guess all I can say at that point is bring on Ultima 4Ever, bring on New Britannia and let us play and judge 😛
I’d argue the best in term of Companions were the Worlds of Ultima and Serpent Isle personallity. Mostly because they felt like actualy people in there, and usually had role to play in the story. In U7 they felt like nothing more than armed pack mules IMO
As for this shit quotient getting higher after U5, I’d say the opposite. Ultima 5 is what I’d consider the last of the “weird stuff all thrown together” Ultimas. 6 through to 8 had the least amount of shit IMO.
Ultima 1 – Swords… and spaceships
Ultima 2 – Now, that game is just weird. Did any of those time periods actually make sense?
Ultima 3 – Still a substantial amount of weirdness
Ultima 4 – Many NPCs still randomly out of the time-period/setting
Ultima 5 – Getting better, but still a fair bit of randomness. But this is where the real Britannia seems to have come into being.
Ultima 6 – The game where they seem to have thought “You know… we should probably make this a world that actually seems to make sense.”
Ultima 7 – Again, the whole world made sense. Everyone was in the correct time period, there conversation fit the world, etc, with the exception of a couple of easter eggs.
Serpent Isle – Same as above.
Ultima 8 – Same as above.
When I look objectively at the Ultima games, it almost seems like it is better not to let Richard Garriott have full control. It almost seems like the George Lucas thing. Give him full control and the main characters become green aliens and Indiana Jones chases aliens and is chased by computer-generated monkeys and ants instead of looking for religious artifacts.
@THEPAL
That may be the greatest post ever. Puts Ultima in an excellent and realistic light. I may disagree about the list at the end, but I’m with you 100% otherwise.
@THEPAL for second comment
Haha, that is true, but you’re looking at the timeline backward. Look at the previous games as if you didn’t know about their sequels. That shows the ebb and flow of the progress. It did start out weird as hell.
@SERGORN
Maybe the second best post ever, but, no one’s bashing ERTS around here.
You know, while I know this isn’t your intent, the fact that you thought that Garriott had no involvement in Ultima since Ultima V is *very* representative of the disinformation that has been spread by bashers who always try their best to diminish the original creator’s involvement in their creation after he has created what they consider a disappointing work
actually, I’m with ThePal’s list, I didn’t dislike u4 and u5, liked u6, loved the 7s, liked u8 and even like u9 to a certain degree, certainly more than u1,2,3 which are boring and mostly senseless to me. And also loved the Underworld games 😉
That’s kind of my basis for not liking RG that much and only trusting him with the weird ultimas not the, subjective, good ultimas 😉
I don’t think there’s a correlation to be bade in term of how much Garriott was involved in a game, and what its quality was in any case.
There are however obvious differences in design philosophies when comparing Garriott Ultimas, and non-Garriott Ultimas… Ultima VII and Serpent Isle being a perfect illustration of this case (same engine, but diametircally opposed philosophy of design).
I think many gaming franchises back in the 80’s started as sort of weird and gradually grew serious. This is the nature of an industry that started as a bunch of enthusiasts tinkering with their computers at home.
For example, if you’ve ever played text adventures, compare the randomness of the original Zork trilogy with the self-conscious, plot-aware Zork Zero and Beyond Zork.
Gameplay that doesn’t involve shooting people and stupid shit like that over and over.
This is an odd thing to say for an RPG player. A large part of a roleplaying game ultimately amounts to sophisticated combat simulation. Once you accept that, it’s easy to sit back and occasionally enjoy a less sophisticated combat simulation. We’ve all grown up and we don’t always have the time for more than that.
Heh, I think we can say for sure now that Codexers are reading this blog.
Actually, I can sympathize with Fitzowen’s angst. I can get pretty angsty myself, but there are enough places on the Internet for that. This is an optimistic, forward-looking blog, so it naturally focuses on the people who are actually, you know, making and selling games.
Realistically, I don’t think anyone can truly recapture the old Ultima magic — so much of it is tied up in who we were at the time. I’m never going to be 15 again, fighting my parents tooth and nail over the topics of religion and morality when a game like Quest of the Avatar came along.
That said, I have more faith in LB until he proves me wrong. Say what you will about his recent output, but we also have tangible evidence as to how EA handles old Origin IPs. But in either case, creating a new product and calling it Ultima/New Britannia doesn’t necessarily make it so.
As for Fitzowen’s jab, I think the larger point is that insider access to the project is a bit of a double-edged sword. Sure, you know more about it than we do — but that also means you have a relationship with the company at some level that the average fan doesn’t, even if it’s extremely informal. I read the articles and comments here through a slightly different lens knowing that. You seem very reasonable and willing to let both sides air their dirty laundry though, just make sure to keep it up.
Matthew:
It’s true, I have a bit of an inside track, and have been given a bit more knowledge about things from people inside EA. But equally, I’m still running my own site here, and I’ve run a few articles that have made life…troublesome for Mythic. I know for a fact that I’ve ruined Paul Barnett’s day at least once, maybe more.
So don’t worry too much. I’ve just moved beyond my youthful hatred of EA for tanking my favourite game developer in the history of ever, because I both learned and accepted (it’s the second part that’s key!) that EA wasn’t some brutal puppet-master driving Origin into the ground against their every effort. And when I realized this, it changed my perception not only of the company, but of Origin’s later games, since of course it follows that Ultima 8 and Ultima 9 are what they are because that’s how Origin — and, in particular, Garriott — wanted them to be.
I think this is awesome!
Not because I agree with Richard, but because it’s so cool to think that he may have his fighting spirit back. We can only benefit if Lord British is back and ready to defend his crown.
Let’s face it, the years after Origin weren’t great for our heroes–you assosciate Digital Anvil and Destination with this overall malaise. Investors were willing to give them a truck load of money and it felt like they were just going through the motions–yeah, sure, a Wing Commander without the characters, do that, whatever. And here’s the game I always dreamed of doing at Origin it’s… about giant unicorns… I mean, wait… space marines.
I was kind of worried that we were being sold the same thing with Portalarium. One of the greatest game designers of all time and most interesting people in the world is BACK and he’s got… another Facebook poker game. But if he’s putting his brain into New Brittania and making a game he’s willing to fight for, that’s awesome.
… and here’s another thought: what if he’s now willing to say things like this because he knows EA finally has something cool in the works? Wouldn’t that be great for everyone? The game development community is a close knit group and Richard has a lot of loyal friends. He almost certainly knows more about Ultima 4Ever than any of us.
It seems telling that he didn’t respond this way to EA doing any number of stupid things to Ultima in the past decade… but now he’s speaking out. He’s a very, very smart guy and he knew that someone adding ninjas to Ultima Online or doing a web-based RTS Ultima didn’t need a response on his part–but now maybe there’s a game out there that does!
Also, if anything I think we need more Felicia Day.
(And yes, I am aware that I can’t spell Britannia. I’m sorry.)
Well to me the Ultima I to III while sharing the name are just too much different to be considered on the same scale as the later ones (Ultima IV and beyond).
I think that what was really interesting in Ultima’s from U4 and beyond was the inclusion of a strong theme. Spiritual self improvement, ethics turned to law, war based on incomprehension, racism and sects,etc…
This is something that has not been in game before and was not found in games after.
Would I be happy to return to Britannia ? Sure, since despite all the fan patch, it still feel like the Avatar/Guardian story has a lot of loose ends.
Now about the EA/Origin discussion I actually blame EA for two failed projects Ultima Online 2 and UXO. Both were interesting and proposed “new” concepts back then. Sure UXO was much much different from the Ultima Prime story but it was interesting nonetheless.
Just saw this:
I trust that all concerned are aware that the good lady — David Watson’s wife — whom the companion Gwenno was based on passed away (I believe from cancer) some years ago?
Klaus:
On these points, you’re quite correct; those two projects were shuttered by EA, and I agree that this was probably a mistake on their part.
The fear with UO2 was that it would compete with UO, and that this would be detrimental; Sergorn Dragon commented to me yesterday that this worry has all but been dispelled by the success of both Everquest and Everquest 2, which continue to exist to this day in parallel.
UXO‘s shuttering was simply irksome, and remains so to this day, because I’m led to believe that the game was pretty close to being in a gold state. Once again, Ultima Online was cited as the reason for this, although I think there was probably a lot more going on behind the scenes. It also certainly didn’t help that when EA closed Origin’s Austin office and tried to move everybody to California, half of the development team opted to walk away from the project (and the company) instead.
I’d actually agree with you there, and I think both of these projects (along with the myriad of other cancelled OSI online games, yes I’m talking to you Privateer Online) shows that while turning Origin into an online game company might not have been a bad idea per se, they handled things very poorly. It’s pretty clear to me that the management at EA back then must have got blinded by the potential profits of online games without thinking of long term risks.
I’m still baffled about the cancellation of Ultima Online 2 (or rather Ultima Worlds Online: Origin – yeah right :P). While I would suspect there was more to it that just the fear of it competing with UO1… (possibly budget constraints since my impression was that it cost a lot already) this is still silly – you think of how your sequel might be competing with your first game before you greenlight it. Duh.
For UXO I do think there was an even bigger missed opportunity there. The concept (if quite obviously inspired by Richard Garriott’s X/Tabula Rasa) was original at the time: instanced gameplay was a new concept (Guild Wars and Tabula Rasa were still not yet here), the more action based/active combat sounded interesting, and it seemed on the good track for nailing the whole “Single player kind of experience in a MMO environment” bit that developpers are still trying to crack nowadays. In other word it had the potential of being both revolutionary AND successful.
@WTF – The cancellation of Ultima X had really nothing to do with UO and EA really wanted the game to be done and released. UXO was conceived from the start to be NOTHING like UO in order to bring a new market and possible UO players who’d want to play it as well (they had even planned a special fee for people who have subscribed to both). What happened is that when they closed down Origin in April 2004 in order to move to studio to EA Redwood… basically none of the team members moved. They didn’t expect that and probably thought that at the very least the core team would relocate to Redwood to continue working on the game. With Origin closed, they actually closed down Earth&Beyond and moved its team to work on UXO… except the E&B didn’t want to take over UXO and most of them quit as well. Basically they were left with no team whatsoever to work on Ultima X so they had no other choice but to cancel it.
Personally I think they should have kept Origin afloat a few more month until the game reached live stage, at which point they could have move everything to the live team that was already working at Redwood. I think this was the plan initially: UXO was planned for a March 2004 release – basically just before Origin was to be shut down. Had it gone out as planned, OSI would have closed, the live team would have taken over in Redwood and things would have been fine. Obviously development took longer than expect (but then… the game had roughly one year of active development, that they did so much of it in such a short time was commendable). I don’t think UXO was close to be gold… I do believe however it was close to reach Beta Stage when they pulled the plug. Had they not closed OSI I think it would most likely have been released by the end of 2004.
Oh well…
Right I wanted to add about this: this sounds possible because as I recall, UO2 had already been in development for a large amount of time by the time it was cancelled. I’m pretty sure early work on it began as soon as UO got released. And it really was meant to be THE next big thing from OSI/EA, the put a lot of budget in it for licensed stuff: they had three discting composers working on the game including an “indie industrial music” band, they had all these actions figures planned with McFarlane, the trilogy of novel (which thankfully got out) and even an animated film to related some part of the backstory (which got cancelled). So obviously they had put a lot of money in it already… perhaps too much by their account especially since as I recall a lot MMO bit the dust at that time, which might have scared EA.
(Ironically we had conducted an interview with Starr Long perhaps a month before cancellation, and when we asked him what would set out UO2 from the competition he jokingly answered “Well, at least WE are going to come out!” Whoops.)
Speaking of which I wonder what happend to Starr Long. As far as I know most of the DG’s core team aren’t in NC Soft anymore.
I think Garriot still has a good title left in him, and ego stroking aside, he may have a point when he says that he is more likely to produce a real Ultima style game.
Big mainstream publishers can do a lot of things very well, but innovation isn’t in that list. AAA titles are almost by definition very safe in terms of game design. Why? You don’t take risks with untested design when your game is costing a hundred million dollars to make.
The Ultima titles always pushed the boundries of game design (which, fair enough, was easier to do back then when genres were still being established), and I’d wager that an independant thinker like RG is more likely to continue that tradition than most.
Now, because I can’t pass this up: U8’s magic system? Simply put, it was magic! I really liked how, for the first time in an rpg, tinkering with the very fabric of the cosmos itself actually involved doing fairly complicated rituals. It added a little pomp and circumstance to magic-doing.
In most games you just click fireball and you do a fireball. In Pagan you lay down a pentagram of carefully selected red and black candles, lay down a special combination of reagents and a foci (with maddening pixel perfect precision [bonus accidental alliteration]), and then kneel and say the magic words. It made the fireball so much more. You really *worked* for that fireball, and you really had to study to know your spells. It was a cool touch that I really appreciated.
Maybe I’m reading into things, but from the tweet I’m thinking Mr. Garriot might be posturing (for some odd reason, he just doesn’t come off as an ego-maniac) so that EA can throw him a bone for an EA-Portawhatsit collaborative platform showcasing a brand new Ultima title? Wishful thinking perhaps, but in the end it’s always about the duckies (Benjamins, moolah, bottom line, whatever).
If anything, it would generate major hype. It would be like reanimating John and George and getting the Beatles back together for a reunion tour… or something like that.
“I trust that all concerned are aware that the good lady — David Watson’s wife — whom the companion Gwenno was based on passed away (I believe from cancer) some years ago?”
I wasn’t aware. That sucks. 🙁
Bandit loaf said: “Not because I agree with Richard, but because it’s so cool to think that he may have his fighting spirit back. We can only benefit if Lord British is back and ready to defend his crown.”
I gotta say, that is definately a cool thing. How often in the past have we thought “Why don’t the developers we love ever fight back? Try to continue making the games we love?”? At the end of the 90s, all my favourite studios collapsed. Sierra, Origin… And their games became no more. It is awesome to see Richard Garriott trying to resurrect Ultima himself, in some way.
Hey don’t get me wrong, I love EA games… sometimes. Ultima 7 was my first rpg and will always be my favorite no matter what. EA owned origin at that time.
From the ultima 8 wikipedia “In this part of the series, Garriott delegated most of the work to others. Garriott later explained, “… I sacrificed everything to appease stockholders, which was a mistake. We probably shipped it three months unfinished.”
I remember reading an article somewhere, probably linked off of here, that the story wasn’t even written by RG. I believe it was the chick who did serpent isle.
EA turns everything they touch to garbage. Is there any debate whether beloved EA franchises wouldn’t be better off without the support of EA?(remakes notwithstanding)
That seems to forget the important fact that all those beloved franchises were sold to EA by their owners. Without the money EA gave there would not have been U7, u8, u9 (even the bob white plot wouldn’t even exist), UO, no Wing Commander 3,4, Prophecy and … add countless others. And it’s not as if RG didn’t profit, he certainly got some money out of it.
So, yes, I think without EA support the beloved franchises wouldn’t be better off since they wouldn’t exist anymore
Nobody is saying you have to like all of them, or even any of them. I would hope, however, that you don’t judge a game or a studio solely on the basis of whether EA is the publisher or owner, respectively.
And what would have been changed had EA given him those three extra months? Because what I read from this quote is that, yeah, EA imposed a deadline and content had to be cut. Three months would have been enough to add in Tempestry, the Birthplace of Moriens, and maybe do a bit more bug-testing. But fundamentally, it would have been the same basic game that got shipped, and the much-derided jumping puzzles would still have been in it. Because that’s what Garriott wanted.
What I’m saying is: be careful what you pin on EA, because some of it is probably Origin’s responsibility. EA might have caused some content to be cut, but Origin was still responsible for the content itself, both what didn’t make it into the game…and what did.
Sheri Graner Ray, yes. Oh, and Warren Spector.
EA gave Origin a deadline…that’s it. They didn’t contribute design decisions, they didn’t stipulate exactly what should and shouldn’t be in the game. Origin decided what content needed to be cut, and what story they wanted to tell. As I said before, be careful what you pin on EA, because while they are hardly blameless here, they are also not the only ones to blame…not by a long shot.
But like any competent developer, Garriott also knew that if he only listened to fans, he’d be shrinking his paycheque in the long term. A good developer knows both when to listen to fans and when not to, because fans are (sadly) notoriously fickle creatures. I should know; I am one!
Ultima 8 is a great example here. Amongst harder-core, longer-term fans, it’s hardly a favourite…but it was also the top-grossing Ultima game, which means that it won new fans for Ultima, and in particular won Ultima more fans than it lost. If anything, that was Garriott’s genius, at least back then.
I’m sure it would make for a wonderful debate topic.
Really? They cut out base-building? You might have just convinced me to give the game a try. I didn’t really pay attention to C&C after the first Red Alert game, but as a long-time fan of Bungie’s Myth series, I have to say that I am a huge fan of RTS/RTT-type games that downplay base-building.
Why? Because it presents a heightened tactical challenge not having that means to replenish troops. Like in real life, every soldier and tank you risk in battle is one you can’t get back again later if things go sour; you need to be more resourceful, you need to think differently, tactically.
So you’ll have to forgive me if I can’t fault EA for trying to add elements like that to the game. YMMV, of course.
I’d have totally said that, had I paid attention to the series.
Fair enough; I find it irksome when any developer doesn’t patch bugs. (Hello, Obsidian…still waiting for that Alpha Protocol patch!)
That said, the iPhone game is pretty fun.
That was the old way they did things, yes. But as I noted almost four years ago, that old EA seemed to be passing away, and in fact it has passed away. EA has become a lot more studio-focused, and gives its developers a lot more space to just make great games. Heck, they’ve even acknowledged that their old way of doing things caused a lot of havoc.
This article and the comments thereto will also prove instructive, since it demonstrates that I once had these same misgivings about EA…and came to repudiate them once I actually realized that EA had changed and was doing things differently.
Doubly amusing in the comments to that article is the question about whether things would have turned out differently for Westwood (yeah) if Activision (not EA) had bought them. Because really, outside of Blizzard’s games and Call of Duty, Activision has been doing its level best to kill franchises and developers alike.
That’s not exactly consistent. Either EA is a malevolent entity that grinds studios into dust while milking them for every schlock game they can produce, or EA is a competent producer (with or without a spotty history) whose studios produce quality games on a fairly consistent basis, with a few misses here and there. EA can be one or the other, but it can’t be both.
Unlikely. Garriott announced his intent to return to the gaming industry in early 2009, but Portalarium wasn’t founded until early 2010. EA jumped into the social gaming market with their acquisition of Playfish in late 2009, which means that their interest predated that point in time.
It’s also worth noting that while Garriott had been making mention of his intent to “one day” return to making Ultima-like games for social networks, he didn’t announce New Britannia until just recently; I first heard rumours of this Mythic project almost a year ago.
As previously noted, tactical-focused RTS/RTT-type games that downplay base-building are hardly a new idea; Bungie was doing them back in the late 1990s. Petroglyph took a different approach, but the idea itself was hardly their novel creation.
Plenty, as has been evidenced here in this thread, and before now in others on this site.
It sounds like you’re picking and choosing your facts. The fact that
EA bought a social networking game studio doesn’t mean they’ve had a new ultima related social game in mind since then. From all the Barnett tweets you post, it doesn’t seem like actual development of this game has been going on for very long.
RG announcing portalarium a little over a year ago. And from the rumor mill this has been in “development” for about a year. Which means…
As for ultima 8 being the top grossing ultima game. Ultima Online holds that title for being top grossing by far. If you have figures for single player Ultima titles in units sold, I would be very interested to see them!
Ok, so Sheri Ray and Warren Spector wrote the ultima 8 storyline. Does that sound like RG had a big hand in making that game? How do you know RG was the one that said, “Make u8 have tons of platform jumping.” Honestly though, I didn’t mind the jumping as much as the spotty controls in being perfectly situated to pick things up, that is what I would have changed to u8.
You have ra3 for iphone? Or is that a jab at me? My point is, the devoted fan did not ask or want an iphone title and they neglected that fact in order for them to milk the franchise.
I don’t own cnc4, but I do own and love myth 2. My first rts. Man, I had all the mods. Lego mod, vietnam mod, ww2 mod, civil war mod, that game was epic.
From my understanding, cnc4 is like war arena mod that all CNC titles have. You can build an infinite number of units with a cool down timer. The more hours you have logged into the game the more options you have for the units you produce. So the guy with 50 hours will noob stomp even if he doesn’t know what he’s doing because his units have abilities the noobs can’t use.
All I hear about multiplayer cnc4 is, it’s king of the hill with no other game mode options. And since it’s not cnc king of the hill, it’s -cnc4- the closing of the main cnc saga. It’s a slap in the face to long term fans that, golly gosh, actually like base building.
Bad Company 2, the game was great(from what my friends tell me) but the online play was TERRIBLE. This game came out last year, so EA can say whatever they want to say, it doesn’t make it true.
Whoops, I’ve never used this blockquote thing before. But my summation of EA is this.
EA buys up game studios with established popular franchises and has them put out as many sequels as they can in the shortest time frame they can. Whether or not the game is shipped flawed and stays flawed is irrelevant to EA.
BTW RA3 shipped oct 2008, cnc 4 shipped march 2010 before dissolving EALA(the studio that made cnc after westwood). So EA has not changed their milking tactics at all. Show me how they have, don’t tell me “ea doesn’t milk franchises in the last four years, cuz EA says so.” When they’ve been milking cnc, they only took a break for sc2, which obviously monopolized rts games. RA3 isn’t a little flawed, it’s VERY flawed. You can crash the game so your stats won’t show you disconnected(bad reputation) won’t show you lost or won. They are called game crashers. It’s been a known bug since the game came out.
But patching a game won’t net EA money. Iphone RA3 will.
More to say later, but answer me this: why do you keep mentioning the fact that EA is trying to turn a profit like it’s a bad thing? It’s the fact that their games make money that enables them and their studios to make & publish more games, after all…
You’re conflating. I did mis-read you slightly, since I thought you wrote that EA was copying this social gaming idea from Garriott’s playbook, which is of course demonstrably not the case. But you said they were copying the Ultima idea specifically…which, as it happens, is also bollocks. You forget that I’ve been in contact with the people at Mythic, and I’m pretty sure I remember when that process began. At the time, Garriott was definitely hawking the Portalarium concept and intimating that he might return to designing games like the ones he’s famous for…but nothing was on the rader except poker at that point. New Britannia was only just announced…and keep in mind that it isn’t even in serious development yet; he was basically teasing us all with a name-drop.
In other words, I am actually quite certain that Mythic’s attempt to bring Ultima back has little to do indeed with Garriott’s current venture. You are of course free to speculate otherwise, but I’ll note that you have no evidence to back up your claims in this regard.
It is true, I was speaking of the single-player titles. But among these, Ultima 8 is the top dog.
No, they wrote the Serpent Isle storyline. Please re-read the cited portion of your comment that I mentioned these two fine developers in response to. In particular, take note of which game you mention.
As to who wrote Ultima 8…I imagine a team of people ultimately worked on it, but Garriott did have a large role in shaping that vision.
Because it’s something he’d wanted to work with for years; he was, after all, a huge Prince of Persia fan, and wanted to bring some platform elements into Ultima.
And my point is that no sane developer caters solely, exclusively, or even (necessarily) primarily to “devoted fans”; that’s a very good way to see diminishing returns. Granted, I find it irksome when developers don’t release patches for game bugs, although that does sometimes happen. I’ve forgiven Obsidian for it (with Alpha Protocol), and I suggest that EA’s various studios can likewise be forgiven for it. I also don’t think you can fault EA or the development studio (remember: the studio still plays a role in all this; EA doesn’t simply dictate policy to its thralls) for pushing out a (quite successful, I might point out) iPhone release. They perceived, correctly, that there was interest there, and they went after it…and probably added more members to the ranks of C&C fans than they lost in the process.
That would be annoying to encounter, for sure, though it’s also kind of reflective of modern warfare in some respects.
And Ultima 8 was a Garriott-produced slap in the face to fans of the open worlds that were hallmarks of earlier Ultima titles. But equally, it was a quite successful game, not unlike (so I gather) C&C4. Because, again, a developer can’t just cater to extant fans; he strives to add new fans as well. If C&C4 did that, then it’s a success, even if some fans of earlier iterations in the series weren’t happy with it. That’s the problem with hardcore, long-term fans, actually: at some point, they feel what almost seems like a sense of “ownership” of the franchise, and get offended when the developer does something different with “their” game.
Also, and again, do have a care who you are blaming and when. You accuse me of picking and choosing facts? You may be right; I may be doing that. But as CCR sang, “take a look at yourself.” You don’t think that EALA had a hand in the design of the C&C4? You don’t think they had the primary role in its design? You lay the blame for everything that was wrong with the game at the feet of EA; do you assume that the developers were just taking orders from John Riccitiello personally, and weren’t making any of their own decisions about the shape of the game?
Here, again, you’re placing blame at EA’s feet that more properly belongs at the developer’s feet. Now, you are of course free to do that, and to say whatever you want about all the many ways EA screws things up. It doesn’t make it true, of course.
You love EA franchises…but EA ruins every franchise they touch. So either you love ruin, or you’re wrong in one of those two points.
If being profit-driven is neither good nor evil (and in this, you’re actually correct), then why does it matter? Of course EA is trying to make money; they’d have to shut their doors if they didn’t, as would any of their studios. I don’t get why it counts as a criticism of the corporation, to note that it has a financial interest. That’s a little like saying I work at my job because they pay me. It’s true…but so what?
This is true in a sense, because it’s still up to the producing studio to support the game (or not) once it gets released. EA as a corporate entity would rather ship quality games, I’m sure, but if a studio puts out a buggy production, it’s ultimately the studio’s responsibility to support it, not EA’s.
That’s a rather subjective view; from what I understand, C&C4 is quite a decent game, buggy or no. Actually, I’ve been reading up on the C&C storyline over the last little while, and it sounds darn interesting overall. It doesn’t particularly seem like milking at all; the Kane saga is a very interesting narrative with a rather odd twist at the end that leaves in doubt whether he’s actually the force of evil that the first couple games made him out to be. Can’t comment on Red Alert 3 as much, though I gather that the Red Alert story has totally diverged from that of the mainline series.
Ah, but flaws do not a milk run make. It’s unfortunate that EALA (or whoever) pushed out a buggy game, but they’re hardly the first studio in history to do that. Heck, even Ultima 7 was pretty buggy when it released, and I can still make Ultima 6 crash to DOS if I want to. EA might have exacerbated things by imposing tighter timelines, but even there you can’t possibly blame EA alone.
But by now I sound like a broken record: you lay all the blame for all that went wrong at EA’s feet, and seem to care not a whit that the studio(s) involved were not passive participants in all this.
Money is part of it. Expanding the series to new platforms, and therefore new fans, is also part of it. Neither of these is really a bad thing; the former is neither good nor bad, and the latter is actually good for the series in the long run.
Someone needs to visit the shrine of humility (Garriott).
Whoa, huge debate there 😛
Rather that take everyone’s single posts point by point, I’ll just make general comments.
@Richard Garriott listening to fans. Not really actually. If anything Garriott had like many creators this tendency of crafting the things HE wanted even if this did not please fans. At best I would say that ne crafted what he believed fans might wanted – even if they didn’t know it. Had Richard Garriott truly listened to fans, Ultima would have been the way of Might&Magic and kept doing the same dated tile-based and turn based games up till the mid ’90 at least. While Ultima VII is widely regarded as the best Ultima game now… it was a tad more controversial than that twenty years ago and there were hardcore fans who didn’t like the direction of U7, felt it had been too simplified, was not enough RPGish and such… These things went unoticed because at this time, the number of new fans brought generally outnumbered the dissatisfied ones, but there were more than enough fans who didn’t like the evolution of the series already (my brother was one of those : he used to be a huge Ultima fan up to Ultima VI… but never could get into the post U6 games which didn’t felt like Ultima anymore to him).
@Serpent Isle. I’m not sure Serpent Isle being rushed was really due to EA. It might be – but SI was done at a time when EA didn’t interfere all that much with OSI. Most of the game was done before the EA buyout actually. The thing is SI had a very troubled development. They actually restarted the game from scratch once and the game kept being delayed again and again (it was supposed to come out before the end of 1992) while it was meant to be a game that could have be done quickly and on a budget like the Worlds of Ultima games to cash on quickly on the name and engine (Origin cashing on before EA? Yes indeed!). And most importantly: it was taking resources away from Ultima VIII and Warren Spector stated for a fact that Serpent Isle caused delay for Ultima VIII. So it got cut content, but this might just have been to focus on the new core Ultima. And then… it’s still the best Ultima as far as I’m concerned so…
@RG’s role on U8. Garriott had reduced role in U8 in that he wasn’t the director and thus couldn’t handle the day to day development. But he still brought the initial vision and supervised the game. I’ve come up with some old RG interview a few month ago where he actually talked about Ultima VIII (that was shortly after Ultima VII’s release), and it was pretty much the exact same game that got released: a solo adventure with no companions (this was cut from the start), isometric 3D, jumping because he loved Prince of Persia, sentenced dialogues because he loved adventure games, and so on. One thing to understand about Ultima VIII – is that it was willingly made to cather to a new audience, and Origin knew full well this would most likely piss off some old time fans – but they deemed it worth the risk. This is why they made an even more accessible, more arcadish game, why they put it on a different land with no relations to Britannia so that new players would not feel lost, and so on. (And I’ve mentioned it before, but if you look at evolution of Ultima from Ultima VI, to Ultima VII, Serpent Isle and then Ultima VIII… in many ways U8 feels like a logical continuation of how the design philosophy evolved). And this had nothing to do with EA – this has to do with the fact that this is what Richard Garriott always aimed to do: bring new players into gaming. You just have to look at his recent Portalarium interview to see that this is still his core philosophy.
@C&C4. I find it amusing that you criticize C&C4… and then admit you don’t have it yourself. On the whole C&C4 is actually a pretty good (if very flawed) game. And if anything it does FEEL like a C&C – not so much in term of gameplay mechanics perhaps, but definitely in term of tone, look and feel. Or to put it another way: Generals used the C&C mechanics, but it was a C&C game in name only. C&C4 might use different mechanics, but it still feels like part of the Tiberium Series.
Also I can’t help but disagree when I see fans complaining because the new game in the series take a different direction. Both C&C3 and RA3 were pretty great games, and both very faithful to their respective C&C series. However they were VERY formulatic to the core and didn’t bring much (if anything) new to the table. C&C3 was basically C&C2 with a new coat of paint. And yes there WERE people who complained about this.
So rather than doing YET another clone of the game, they decided to try an ORIGINAL approach to the genre and bring fresh air into the series. And people complain about THIS? Really? Now taking this new approach, it lead to mistakes and flaws that probably would not have come had they simply followed the usual formula they knew to letter… but I’m sorry, I always welcome change and developers taking risks. Now perhaps they should have tried this change of direction for AFTER the Tiberium series was completed, but I still applaud them for trying.
The idea that EA came and say to EALA “Go make a C&C that is different!” is ludicrous actually. If anything, the corporate EA would have wanted them to keep the same formula because it was proven and successful both amongst fans, reviewers and commercially. But no, EALA – is the developers, NOT the publisher – decided to take a gamble with C&C4 and try to bring the series in a new direction. Eck they even forgot about making it a multiplatform title to focus solely on providing a strong PC experience. One might argue they failed – but I won’t blame them for trying.
On a side note, C&C is also a good proof that EA doesn’t solely care about getting out games and making bucks no matter if they are good or bad. They had a Squad-based FPS spin off called “Tiberium” in the works – and they ended cancelling it because they felt it was crap.
Oh and also two years between C&C titles is hardly a rushed development time. If anything two years between games it pretty much the norm.
@RA3 for the Iphone. I’m pretty sure this was ported by a different EA team, so this is kind of an irrelevant point.
@The Evil Overlord. That is the point where I most disagree (note this line also applies to U8, to C&C4 and other games): there seem to be this assumption that when a game is produced by EA, there is some Evil Overlord directing things under his whip that forces the poor victimized developers to do a game this way and not that way. Except this is not how things work. *Developers* come with game idea, designs and concepts… then they propose the concept to the upper managements of EA who might or might not give the greenlight. But EA does not come and say “you developer do this game concept now!”
Blame SEGA on that one: not only they sat on the completed game for six month while not letting Obsidian touch it any further, but they refused to let them do any patch. (See what I mean when I say EA is one of the lesser evils?)
WTF has a point. EA shouldn’t be blamed for every bad game they publish. Publishers generally have very little to do with the development of a game. They might hand down some ground rules (deadline, rating, etc), but they don’t usually make design decisions. Ultima 8’s gameplay was Origin’s decision (I’m assuming with Garriott at the lead). Ultima 9’s gameplay and story was Origin’s decision. People blame Sierra’s demise on the parent companies too, and yet if you look at the games they aren’t the only ones to blame. King’s Quest 8, the one that ended the series, was made completely different to earlier games. That was the decision of the same people at Sierra that had made the earlier ones.
EA is a publisher. That means they hand over bucket-loads of money in order to make bucket-loads more. Them doing their job correctly means they do that well. If a studio is not making the returns, then they aren’t going to keep handing them the bucket-loads of money. EA isn’t responsible for the game doing poorly… that is generally based on the studio’s decisions.
Richard Garriott Twitter thoughts for conspiracy theoriests–not only does he follow Mythic’s Paul Barnett (@paulbarnett), but an hour before he posted the tweet above he replied to former-Mythic-producer/friend-of-Paul @JoshDrescher with this: “Hey, I am here for you! I think we should start a design feedback site, and make sure I get all your thoughts first.”
I have had some contact with the folks on that side of the decision. EA greenlit (and more importantly budgeted) Ultima Online 2 believing that it would be a natural successor to Ultima Online rather than a game with a different feel that would exist alongside it. There was no understanding on EA’s part that players wouldn’t want to leave the game they put ‘work’ into–it was just expected that they would move on to the new, improved game. Doing UO2 was also thought to be a necessary thing–the other two ‘big’ MMOs were developing sequels and corporate believed Ultima Online had to do the same to stay competetive.
Someone mentioned Everquest 2 as proof that Ultima Online 2 could co-exist with Ultima Online… but at the same time Asheron’s Call 2 flopped and seemingly managed to knock AC out of the popular consciousness in the process. That’s exactly the worst case scenario they worried about with UO2. (EQ2 also failed to do what Sony really wanted, too, which was not just to pay for itself but to keep their franchise on top.)
(I’m also still not sure who Ultima Online 2 was for. The eclectic material they promoted for it was just *so weird* to this average gamer–dancing and meers and steampunk robots? From an artistic perspective I understand that the team was trying to do something original and unique and it’s possible it would have been beautiful… but EA must have looked at that, compared it to what the competition was doing (games that were the previous succesful MMO but with improved technology) and been terribly frustrated. That, I think, shows in all the confusion over how to promote it…)
It’s not a coincidence that these things all happen in March (the UO2 cancellation, Privateer 3, etc.)–March 31st is the end of the 2nd Quarter, the point where your earning report is locked in. EA needed to have the Austin studio off the rolls by that point (Origin’s very expensive lease also likely stopped them from keeping the studio open to finish the game).
I also wonder how the game was. One of the most positive things about Electronic Arts in recent years is their decision not to ship ‘cheap’ games anymore. You can hate a million specific decisions about Command and Conquer or Mass Effect or whatever, but they’re still putting out entirely solid games. The decision may have been between doing a lesser job to finish the game without the team or not shipping and they may have made the choice for the sake of the company’s overall image.
(I know we all lament lost games and we hear from developers who promise they’re amazing… but I’ve found a number of cases where people look back years later and admit that yeah, that project that everyone was crying over was actually an enormous mess. The Sierra Babylon 5 space sim is a big one…)
The last I heard (which was maybe a year ago) he was with Disney Interactive in California.
I don’t know–Richard Garriott has money–and investing it in a gaming company isn’t anything close to a sure thing. I have to figure that he’s doing this because he has a vision.
I also don’t think there’s any bad blood on EA’s part. If Garriott were willing to be an EA employee again then they would quite possibly trip over themselves offering the Ultima franchise back to him (I know for a fact that they have extended that same offer to Chris Roberts several times in recent years).
EA didn’t even give Origin a deadline–Origin came up with the development timeline, EA just approved it and held them to it. In fact, they didn’t even do that… they allowed Ultima 8 to slip to after Christmas, which was itself a big deal. They couldn’t go past that March 31st barrier mentioned above, though.
(Which I’m sure chafed Garriott and his team–their philosphy was that you work until a game is ready and they likely felt there was a double standard with EA having been willing to bankroll Strike Commander for endless extra months earlier that year… while EA probably thought they’d just learned a lesson about letting Origin break their milestones and weren’t willing to do it again.)
What EA probably did do, though, was make the team more aware of the need to sell a specific number of games than ever. You were starting to see Origin projects canceled because they weren’t viable (Phoenix Force) and that probably put into Garriott’s mind the idea that he needed to make Ultima 8 as accessible as possible… which may have lead to some of the elements longtime fans didn’t like (but then the other side of this is that it was TRUE–EA wouldn’t have supported more Ultima if a big title was a bust).