Markee Dragon Interviews Richard Garriott
Marcus “Markee Dragon” Eikenberry posted a forty-two minute interview with Richard Garriott to YouTube a few days ago:
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xfrVUj_c0?rel=0&w=560&h=349]
A lengthy talk!
It’s a pretty wide-ranging interview, although the main topic is obviously Richard Garriott’s Portalarium and his plans for bringing new and exciting styles of gameplay and stories to the social/casual gaming space. A Mystical Land also gets a mention.
Markee even goes “there” and asks Garriott for his feelings on selling Origin Systems to Electronic Arts lo those many years ago.
Hey WTF, you know what interview would make an EXCELLENT counterpoint to this one? *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*. 😛
Wow. There’s no way the DAoC guys can compare to Lord British himself. Did anyone here like DAoC? I remember my buddies playing it. It was a short period of time between EQ and WOW. There wasn’t really anything all that innovative about it.
He really proves my point about EA and Ultima 8 in the first 5 minutes. You think he reads these forums? If so, can I please get a free crossbow Mr Lord British.
I love how he says elves, dwarves, and orcs are not Ultima. Can’t argue with guy that invented Ultima.
First, Garriott doesn’t manufacture or otherwise provide crossbows; that would be David “Iolo” Watson. I’ve seen one of his crossbows up close; even got to hold it. Fine craftsmanship.
Second, the comparison was between Dark Age of Camelot (a critically acclaimed RPG notable for several innovative mechanics, especially in the areas of PVP and PVE) and Tabula Rasa; Mythic’s is easily the superior product, despite its age and despite not having been created by your idol.
Third, would be be fair to say that you’re a Lord British fanboy, in the understanding that I use the term “fanboy” in its most stereotypical connotation of the word?
Fourth, I don’t know if he reads the site or not; I certainly get enough traffic from Austin on a weekly basis that it’s possible.
Also, I think it’s quite possible to argue with the guy who invented Ultima on the point you cite, because I observe that a few different Ultima titles have included exactly those races in the past. Is Garriott repudiating his own work…his own early Ultimas? There’s a troubling thought.
Great interview.
Thanks.
Orcs don’t belong in Ultima ?
Guess he forgot about that when making Ultima IX then 😐
Markee Dragon – the James Lipton of video games?
Orcs, ogres, and other fantasy creatures continued to exist in the games even after Ultima 4, though they slowly disappeared with each sequel. I can forgive Richard for not remembering every enemy in every game though. He’s done a lot of stuff, and dude’s been to space! SPACE! He has a lot on his plate. XD All in all a great interview and I can’t wait to see what he produces next, especially if it can recapture a little of that magic way back in the early days of UO.
Pasting a comment I left in the wrong thread. Apologies for that.
I’ve never played Ultima Online but from the interview it seems that what he is aiming for is a F2P version of the same sandbox style — an UO2 if you will.
All that is well and good, but I still don’t see how that separates it from an MMO. Just affixing the ‘casual’ or ‘social’ label doesn’t make it into a different animal.
I think what ‘social’ gaming needs is something to ‘compel’ the casual gamer into transforming into a more ‘invested’ gamer if not a ‘hardcore’ one. For that, there has to be an overarching goal that lumps all the players in (for example, a newly established colony in a new land or planet), makes it necessary to have the ‘knights, fishermen, and bakers’, and establishes roots and memories for players ( the process of moving from barely surviving as a colony, to thriving, and eventually branching which leads to alliances and war between player societies).
Where it should really appeal to the ‘casual’ gamer is that they should come into such a ‘world’ either newly formed or established over the years on the rocket ship or boat, and be able to determine for themselves what skill sets they can learn in order for their career path be it scavenger, clothier, cook, IT guy, doctor, or engineer based upon the demand of the society and as a matter of personal play style. Acquiring those skill sets should be more than just putting points into a tree. If I were to play a doctor or healer, I should learn how to treat wounds or diseases not only from reading in game books but by practicing the skill and experimentation as well. That would give the player more of a rewarding experience rather than playing a healer to round out a dungeon crawl party or raid. Furthermore, this ‘doctor’ can ‘publish’ his experiments, reagent combinations, etc. for review or present them in a in game conference of those players that ‘work’ as healers thereby creating ‘new spells’ or accomplishments that benefit or harm the overall society.
I’m not a programmer nor game designer so I don’t know how any of that could be coded, but, in my opinion, that is what ‘social’ gaming should aim for — not as much creating virtual jobs, but more of feeling one’s place in that world as well as impacting that very same world.
Garriott pretty clearly explains this point, don’t understand the confusion: D&D/LoTR were an early influence, while later Ultimas showcased a more personal vision of Britannia. Like an illustrator who starts out emulating his favorite artists on the way to developing his own unique style. It’s not about repudiation, it’s about refinement.
I get that Garriott explains himself, and in fact I’m not questioning him at all; I’m questioning Micro and his less-than-apt arguments.
LAWL! What was I arguing? And who was I arguing against? If you insist on starting an argument.
Ok.
I don’t really know what fanboy means, I am a boy, and I am a fan. No one is perfect, but RG has definitely revolutionized the way we play games several times. Paul Barnett has not… ever.
I never played Tabula Rasa. And as he explains, he listened to too many other people while making a few of his games. I can say with affirmation(even though I never played it), city of heros is a really crappy game. I also didn’t like Ultima 3-5.
I’m DEFINITELY biased towards RG over mythic. I have more faith in the guy that essentially created the appeal for MMO’s with UO than the guy that made a rip off Everquest.
On a side note, it would appear that DAoC had 250k users near it’s launch, and steadily declined. Whereas UO player base increased for 6 years before it started to decline.
I never said LB manufactured crossbows. I’m pretty sure he’s always been the one to give them away.
http://bloggingultima.blogspot.com/2009/10/sigh-9.html
Excerpt from Blogging Ultima,
“I still need to take some photos of the lovely crossbow Lord British sent me quite some time ago!”
Sorry WTF Dragon, you are flat out wrong on that one. Geeze you need to start being more coherent ;).
I guess you’re not going to touch the Ultima 8 argument again, since it’s RG and me vs you and your buddies. Because again, he really proves my point about Ultima 8 in the first 5 minutes.
Are there any arguments against UO being A LOT better than Dark Age? Does anyone even like dark age? Are dark age servers even around, like how UO servers are still up?
Critically acclaimed rpg… didn’t you hammer home over, and over, and over ratings don’t mean a game is good or not? That’s pretty incoherent my friend. Well, here’s an excerpt from gamespot’s review,
“This also means that Dark Age of Camelot isn’t an outwardly innovative game–it’s clearly inspired by the games it’s competing against, and offhand, it bears a striking resemblance to them.”
How innovative was it?
I think someone is Big, Fat, Flaming Paul Barnett fanboy and Richard Garriot hata, in the most stereotypical sense of the words.. And again, from how defensive you are of Mythic, I have this sneaking suspicion you’re somehow connected to them… Paul.
I’ve also felt that this site is a viral marketing campaign for new Ultima games. Which is cool, I love viral marketing!
I have to admit that I used to idolize Richard Garriott. I have no idea what Paul will come up with, whether or not it will be good and/or feel like Ultima.
However, there is no denying that without Richard Garriott, we wouldn’t have Ultima at all.
Thank you, WTF, for posting this interview. I love that Garriott is still involved with making games after all of these years.
BTW, my “less than apt-argument(statement)” I have never said Elves, Dwarves, and Orcs have never been in an Ultima game. I said it’s not Ultima. Quoting what Richard Garriott said himself word for word in the interview.
It shows your intellectual dishonesty, your incoherent devotion to mythic, with your wanton desire to argue with anyone that questions mythic.
“Also, I think it’s quite possible to argue with the guy who invented Ultima on the point you cite, because I observe that a few different Ultima titles have included exactly those races in the past. Is Garriott repudiating his own work…his own early Ultimas? There’s a troubling thought.”
Then go onto say,
“I get that Garriott explains himself, and in fact I’m not questioning him at all; I’m questioning Micro and his less-than-apt arguments.”
But alas, -I’m- the one called a troll!
This is either viral marketing or you’re sucking up to mythic, hardcore.
I still really like your website! It’s a great place to talk Ultima and get all sorts of Ultima related apps, and I hope nothing but the best for it!
Even if you’re somewhat of a dishonest jerk.
Micro, you really are crossing the line into trolling. I do have a banhammer, reluctant as I am to use it. Govern yourself accordingly.
Taking things in somewhat of a reverse order, you will note that my question was ultimately whether, in stating that Tolkeinish races aren’t Ultima, Garriott was repudiating his early work — including Ultima 4 — as being not authentically Ultima. Because ultimately, from how you represented his statement, that’s the logical conclusion to draw. And yet, we know that Garriott has repeatedly stated that Ultima 4 is his favourite in the series. If there is any game which can be called authentically Ultima, surely it’s the one favoured above all others by the creator of the series? And yet, as you relayed his argument, this same favourite game is not authentically Ultima in some way…a contradiction.
I’ll take the hit on the crossbows; Garriott does give them away. My mistake.
I did at one point state that reviews — of the Metacritic sort, which allow casual users to contribute ratings — should be taken with a grain of salt. Actual reviews by recognized voices in the industry are worth a bit more, and I note that DAoC gets shining reviews almost across that board. You ask about innovation and accuse me of incoherence and intellectual dishonesty almost at the same time, and I can begin by pointing to the Gamespot review you cite notes that the PVP system in the game — realized as inter-realm combat between potentially massive armies of players on all sides — is explicitly labelled as innovative. The review begins by lauding DAoC as “a new era” in online gaming! The review at IGN outlines another rather inventive aspect of the game, its character class selection process, which doesn’t lock in your character class until you’ve gained around five levels of experience.
So…did you just miss that the Gamespot review you mentioned praised the game for innovation in certain aspects, or were you being overtly dishonest?
Also…granted, DAoC has a smaller player base…but how many people are playing Tabula Rasa today, again?
Now, are there arguments that Ultima Online is better than DAoC? Probably, depending on what aspects of play you’re looking for. And there are also arguments in the opposite direction, again depending on what aspects of play you’re looking for. Nothing has come along which beats UO for raw sandboxing and emergent gameplay possibilities, but its PVP system was problematic from day one and it had stability issues that DAoC, frankly, lacked; that game has been praised for its stability, in fact. In the end, a lot of it is subjective. It’s also worth noting that under Mythic, UO has regained some of its roots that were lost in some of the later expansions published by Origin; the Stygian Abyss expansion, in particular, did a lot to bring back historical Ultima elements to the game.
Next, as to whether I’m viral marketing for Mythic, I will point to the fact that the site began operation back in August of 2004, long before any of this talk of a new Ultima game began. That’s not proof in and of itself, but I can also produce documentation that affirms that I am, in fact, an employee of a different company which is not in any way, shape, or form affiliated with Electronic Arts or any of its developers. So that rules out the possibility that I’m in the direct employ of EA and Mythic, and therefore rules out the possibility that the site is an overt attempt at viral marketing.
That said…let’s not forget that I have seen what Mythic was working on (I’ll write about the trip in a future article). I liked what I saw; I think they are onto something and I think they are doing a better job with incorporating the Virtues into gameplay than Origin (yes, under Garriott) ever did. I think they have found a way to capture at least a little bit of that Ultima magic, even if they don’t have Lord British there in the studio with them. If I’m a fanboy because I have the ability to judge the project from an objective standpoint, then I suppose I can accept that label. But there it is: I’ve seen it, and I think there’s some “there” there.
It’s no secret that Mythic — and Paul Barnett specifically — contacted me directly about their project. It’s no secret that I periodically correspond with a few people at Mythic; I’ve mentioned having done so, and you can actually see me do it occasionally via Twitter. But here’s the key point: they came to me, because they wanted to engage the community of Ultima fans when creating this project. Their plans for how to go about that have changed over the months between then and now due to a variety of reasons (e.g. EA Louse), but the basic desire has always been there. They could have just slapped the Ultima label on a generic game, like Pheonimc did; they chose to go about it quite a bit differently. And they want to do more; they’ve even told me what and how they’d like to. I have an inside look at things (not that I can talk about a lot of it, NDAs being what they are). And again, I like what I see. I think you will too, if you can get past your urge to irrationally dismiss it as rubbish without the evidence that comes from actually trying the thing out.
Do I like Paul Barnett? Yeah, I’ll admit that. The guy is passionate about his work, passionate about Ultima, and really quite an affable, good-natured bloke in person. I enjoyed raising a beer with him.
Do I hate Richard Garriott? No, not at all. I wouldn’t run this site if I didn’t respect and enjoy his work and creativity, and I’ll gladly admit to being indebted to him, at some level, for all the inspiration and wonder that the Ultima series has brought to me.
I do refuse to idolize the man, however, and don’t think him infallible; I extend the same courtesy to Mr. Barnett. I also recognize that Garriott has a knack for shaping fan opinion and deflecting responsibility for his shortcomings onto others. That sounds more harsh than I want it to, but there it is: Garriott has a knack for making someone else — EA, the stockholders, various other people, etc. — seem responsible for when one of “his” effort fails to live up to expectations. Is the man a revolutionary? Yes, he has been at times…and he has also turned in some lackluster games. Barnett — and, more generally, Mythic — may not have done anything that truly revolutionized the way we game…but they have a knack for delivering consistently good games even so.
It’s the Babe Ruth/Ty Cobb comparison, but in a gaming context. Ruth had way more home runs, but Cobb was a more reliable hitter overall. There was room for both men to find fame in baseball, and in fact baseball needs its Ruths and Cobbs in order to work well as a game and a sports league. In like manner, gaming needs its Garriotts and Origins, and its Barnetts and Mythics. It needs its revolutionaries who deliver megahits when they can, even if it means a lot of strike-outs in the process, and the guys who can deliver decent hits more consistently. And really, so does Ultima.
I don’t think you’re a viral marketer at all — but there is some marketing going on here, even if you don’t realize it.
In the brave new world of social media, companies are beginning to understand that what they tell consumers about their product isn’t nearly as important as what consumers are telling each other about the product. Fans trust fellow fans way more than they trust corporate marketing speak. You’re a high profile Ultima site, so it’s definitely in their best interests to have you say nice things about them and their product. (just like Arena and CIC)
And while I think you’ll share your genuine opinion of the product, it’s hard to see you as a completely objective source given your special level of access. Would you have nicer things to say about Garriott if you were drinking with him, visiting his studio and receiving free trinkets? I kinda think so, it’s only human nature.
One thing you can’t take away from Mythic is that with DAoC they basically did PvP in MMOs the best it has ever been done.
Which is actually more of a knock against the game design of MMOs than praise for Mythic, but still I give them credit where credit is due. They understood that, even though it is substantially less cool in theory, MMO PvP must be heavily regulated in order to encourage positive social behavior among the players.
@Micro Magic
Well I guess that explains your undying faith in Richard Garriott then. 😛
On a side note, as much as I admire Richard Garriott… I have to say there is only so many times you can go and say “Yeah but x influenced me, EA wanted that, NC Soft did this” before you begin to lose some credibility.
It seems to me more and more that Richard Garriott tries to put all the shortcomings of its last gaming attempts on other’s people shoulders as if he had no responsability at all in these failures and that really his game would have been great but it’s not his fault.
That’s not say there is no truth in this, but he seems to try to dodge responsibilty and that is somewhat dissapointing because there was a time that he didn’t shy away from responsibality and said clearly about U8 for instance “I screwed up”.
Nobody’s denying that Richard Garriott has revolutionized the gaming industry over and over again, and that he is a true visionnary. But vision is nothing if you can’t manage to make a great game out of it. And the truth of the matter is that Richard Garriott hasn’t produced a worthwile game in a long time (some would say 1999 with U9, others would say 1997 with UO, a LOT of Ultima fans would say 1992 with Ultima VII…)…
So the simple truth of the matter is that he definily has to prove and redeem himself in the eyes of gamers and fans, prove that he still has it in him to produce quality games, and especially in term of providing quality stories and writing.
Now I’m certainly hopeful and excited about New Britannia… but I certainly now it could end up as another dud.
As for the Mythic bit, I just don’t get your hatred toward them. Did Paul Barnett ate your kitten or something ? I have no idea if Mythic’s project will be any good, but I can recognize that it seems to be in the hands of passionate fans and that allows me to be cautiously optimistic about it. Simple hating a project on account that Richard Garriot it not working on it is just silly, childish and immature.
Bottom line, RG’s previous work as a whole has more influence and more success than mythic’s. Why would I be excited about something mythic creates? I played DAoC for a month. It was one of the most boring games I’ve ever played. Maybe after 200-300 hours I could talk about it’s pvp.
Matthew, I agree. I trust user reviews, people that have played the game for fun over that of people that played the game to review it because it’s their job.
If you think I hate Paul Barnett because his previous work has been inferior to RG’s previous work. OK, never met the guy. Can’t say I like or dislike him as a person. I do hate DAoC. So why would I have confidence in their next game?
Do UO fans count as ultima fans? Becuase UO was the best selling ultima game. And I think A LOT more people would argue that that was one of his best games.
Most people wouldn’t consider DAoC’s pvp to be the best pvp in an mmo. I’d also go as far as to say, most people didn’t like DAoC as a game. When people think of MMO’s they think of UO, EQ, and WOW. basically just another shovelware mmmo.
Could you quote for me where RG said he screwed up on ultima 8?
WTF
I like how you compare apples with oranges, when you could very easily compare apples with apples. I guess that’s your dishonest nature. UO – DAoC. Is apples to apples.
Not sure if Paul Barnett was involved with Aliens online(a mythic mmo) or Imperator Online, but im sure he had a hand in Independence day online. From reviews I’ve seen, Tabula Rasa was a MUCH better game than Independence day online, Starship Troopers: Battlespace or Aliens Online. Oranges to oranges.
It’s tough to argue with someone that is dishonest. It’s tough to debate someone that is debating for the sake of debating. And not because they actually believe something to be true.
“Also, I think it’s quite possible to argue with the guy who invented Ultima on the point you cite, because I observe that a few different Ultima titles have included exactly those races in the past. Is Garriott repudiating his own work…his own early Ultimas? There’s a troubling thought.”
Then go onto say,
“I get that Garriott explains himself, and in fact I’m not questioning him at all; I’m questioning Micro and his less-than-apt arguments.”
This is either viral marketing or you’re sucking up to mythic, hardcore.
The reason I say that is, you have a link to UO, Mythic, and EA at the bottom of the site. Perhaps this site didn’t start off as viral marketing. But your vehement approach to anyone that says RG>PB and the fact you link to mythic and EA shows your bias towards those companies.
This is like arguing with a girlfriend. “I didn’t start it, you started it, I’m not the troll, you’re the troll.” You’re doing the name calling “fanboy” thing, and trying to personally attack in an attempt to get me all mad and emotional. That’s ok though, I’m the troll. So what does that make you(other than the webmaster)?
I have a better analogy for you. I honestly can’t even tell you who you were comparing Ruth and Cobb to.
Richard Petty has won 200 races and 7 championships in nascar. He is a legendary figure for the sport. Whereas his son Kyle Petty hasn’t won any championships and has won a handful of races. Richard Petty didn’t win every race, or win the championship every year. But if we had the ability to put these two drivers on a track, in the prime of their lives and I had to put my money on one of them, I would put it on Richard.
Either way, the analogies are flawed. The older one gets does not equal less quality products they produce in their field of work, or Warren Buffet would be losing money than making it at his age.
I haven’t heard of Paul Barnett revolutionizing videogames. Like Kyle Petty, most of the games mythic has made have been of poor quality. I haven’t even heard of most of them other than DAoC and Warhammer.
The amount of games RG is famous for, for doing really well making is about equal to the amount of games mythic has made that were total shovelware. And the bad titles RG has produced are about equal to how many good titles mythic has produced.
Richard Garriott’s track record is clearly much better than Paul Barnett’s. So how is it that DAoC guys can compare to LB?
Because Mythic has been releasing quality work recently while you need to go at least one decade to find quality work from Garriott (knowing that a lot of people would disagree about U9 being quality work) ?
Oh and DAOC was much better game than Tabula Rasa – no doubt about it.
As for you drivers analogy, perhaps Richard Garriott in his prime would definitly offer better work than Mythic… but Garriott isn’t in his prime and while I do not necesarilly agree with this assessment there are quite a few people who believe he has completly lost touch (you just need to check out comments anytime the name Garriott pop up on a videogame site news) and sometimes with good reasons. So your analogy is… dumb.
Regarding your “hate” for Barnett and Mythic, I would say the issue is more like you’re not even willing to give them the benefic of the doubt, anymore that you are willing to consider that Garriott might screw New Britannia. We don’t know, we haven’t seen the games. It’s perfectly possible Mythic could come up with a good Ultima game (hell they’ve definitly created the best Ultima Online addons in a decade), just while it’s possible Garriott while fail his New Britannia. Personally I rather hope both will be good you know…
Also I would separate UO fans and Ultima fans. A lot of Ultima fans never liked UO due to its lack of narrative, and the vast majority of UO fans had never heard of Ultima before UO.
And no I’m not gonna find ten years old interviews, but Garriott certainly said many times he screwed up with U8 in the five years between U8 and U9. Feel free to believe me or not, I can’t say I care 😛
Wow–a lot of passion in this thread!
My 2 cents–I’m a fan of Garriott, I’m a fan of Origin, I’m a fan of Ea, Bioware, Portalarium, Mythic, Paul Barnett, and his staff.
I have no problem with this, because from my point of view, there’ no need to pick sides. Thanks to the passion of the fans, all of the above see the importance of continuing to create the worlds we love. From what I’ve seen, Garriott has a passion for his creation. From what I’ve seen, Barnett and his staff have a passion for Ultima too–who the hell cares who would win in a cage match?! WE GET NEW ULTIMAS!
Micro:
I have already agreed with this statement, when you made it previously. I don’t dispute that Garriott has had tremendous influence on the shape of RPG gaming the world over.
So why do you keep bringing this up? It does nothing to advance your case here.
Despite the above acknowledgement, I could easily ask why you would you automatically be excited about anything Richard Garriott creates. A rational person recognizes that past success is no assurance of future success. We can see this is true even in Garriott’s case simply by looking just at the last few Ultima titles.
And the simple fact of the matter is that we have no idea what New Britannia is going to look like, other than that it will be a browser game realized via the Portalarium player. We don’t know what engine it will use. We don’t know what the story will be. We don’t know whether it will be set in the Britannia we know and love, or in a new world entirely that happens to share the name. We don’t know whether it will be single-player or MMO. We don’t know to what level it will incorporate social features common to other browser-based games. We don’t know whether it will be a “true” browser game, or a Facebook-exclusive game.
We. Know. Nothing. About. It.
Why should you be excited about something that, for now, is known to us only as — and via — idle chatter? Even if that idle chatter happens to flow from the mouth of Richard Garriott, what is there to get excited about? All we have is a name — New Britannia — which may not even be the final name of a game. And yet, you are confident beyond all reason and justification that New Britannia will be the greatest thing since…what? Ultima 7?
Maybe it will be. But there’s no evidence for or against that, because there is no evidence…period. As such, we can’t conclude a darn thing about it.
Whereas we have evidence that Mythic is working on something, and I have a bit more evidence than that which I hope I can one day share with everyone.
Should you be excited about it? This question gets back to an early topic that came up: is the influence of Lord British absolutely required to craft an Ultima game? The general consensus, in that earlier discussion, seemed to be in the negative, and one can point to several fine examples of games which, by all accounts, are excellent Ultima games (including some remakes) which were made with little or no involvement by Richard Garriott.
So, okay…let’s take it as a given that we don’t, strictly speaking, need Richard Garriott to make a great Ultima game. It necessarily follows that it’s quite possible that Mythic could make a great Ultima game. Looking Glass did it. The Serpent Isle dev-team did it. Mythic aren’t slouch developers; the possibility exists that they too could do it.
Is the prospect of a new Ultima game, or a re-imagined Ultima game which captures the spirit of the old series, exciting to you?
You have a penchant for commenting on things that you have little practical experience of, it seems. This lack of objectivity hurts your credibility.
I realize you’re not addressing me, but I’d like to point out that there is absolutely no reason to trust the ramblings of anonymous third parties on the Internet, especially when it has been demonstrated time and again that people will be more likely to go out of their way to voice a negative opinion than a positive opinion, and when it has also been demonstrated that aggregate groups of such people are not above skewing user ratings on what sites they can to create an artificially over-negative impression of a title they have opted to dislike…often without having played said title at all or for very long.
It’s worth noting that Barnett is most notably recognized for Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, which is another MMO that — despite its smaller userbase — received much more praise from both critics and fans than Tabula Rasa ever did.
Before WAR, though, Barnett mostly worked on stuff for Games Workshop, and on various MUDs (especially on AOL). Within those circles, some of his works have been noted and highly praised…but it’s a very different background than Garriott’s, and so an “apples to oranges” comparison.
Saying you hate DAoC (or any game) after playing it for half an hour is like saying you hate Star Trek: Deep Space Nine based on the opening fifteen minutes of the first episode. To be fair, the first couple seasons of DS9 were lackluster; the last four seasons were among the best in all of Star Trek.
Now, if you want to base your position on the developer and what they can accomplish on a tiny (and largely insignificant) snippet of experience of their work, I can’t stop you. And if you’re one of those folks who stopped watching DS9 after two episodes, that is likewise your business. In the end, in either case, it’s your loss for cleaving to opinions which, frankly, aren’t nearly as objectively grounded as you’d like them to be.
That’s a topic that has been debated, and my own answer to the question would be “yes”. It is worth noting that a lot of Ultima Online fans are only dimly aware of the single player series, though.
And yet, it is rather consistently praised for exactly that aspect of it.
Enough obviously do that it continues to be profitable to run.
It is true that nothing can compete with WoW and the EverQuest games.
It’s also worth noting that while Ultima Online enjoys historical recognition, its subscriber base has been holding steady at a substantially lower level for a number of years now. There are, last I checked, about 100,000 UO subscribers; there are approximately 12,000,000 (!!) World of Warcraft subscribers.
Yes, we know your opinion of the game. Whether it comports with reality is a matter still unsettled.
In all honesty, this and what follows was by far my favourite — by which I mean: I laughed — part of your comment.
You keep asserting I’m dishonest, and it’s true I struggle with that vice in “real life”. Yet I’ve been pretty open about admitting where I have been in error and/or in agreement with specific statements of yours, and I’ve been pretty level in delivering replies to your statements in general.
Um…yeah, basically.
I can’t find evidence of that.
Okay, see, this is what we call “moving the goalposts” a bit, though. I suppose, in one sense, it’s not ideal to compare a sci-fi MMO to a fantasy MMO, but to be equally honest I’m a tad confused as to whether we’re talking about designers or studios.
I’ve been operating under the assumption that we’re doing two different things, actually: comparing Garriott to Mythic and to Paul Barnett.
In the former case, Tabula Rasa vs. DAoC is a better comparison than UO vs. DAoC for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that UO has been worked on by a number of developers and teams over the years; Garriott can’t take full credit for it. We could maybe compare some of Mythic’s earlier titles as well, but since Garriott himself set out to define his participation in the MMO space with Tabula Rasa, and since Mythic’s participation in the MMO space is in no small way defined by DAoC, that is actually the best comparison to make.
In the latter case, which I have only now just begun to allude to, the best comparison is Tabula Rasa vs. Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning; in that comparison, we are stacking against each other the titles that each man is currently most recognized for in the MMO space as an individual.
Yeah, I know, eh?
Yeah, I know, eh?
YEAH, I KNOW, EH?
Well, I’m not trying to step on any toes and be a dick about things, generally speaking. That’s not exactly the same as being a viral marketer or a suck-up…nor is my failure to automatically dismiss as crap anything which does not flow directly from the hands of Garriott.
And my saying that, in turn, does not automagically make me a Garriott-hater, nor does it make me a Mythic/Paul Barnett bootlicker. Grey is a wonderful colour, is it not?
Um…yes? I run an Ultima site; those are the links to the companies that own the Ultima name and are working to produce Ultima-related content. How utterly bizarre that I should think to link to them.
(Actually, that reminds me that I need to add an “Ultima Forever” link.)
I’m also a vocal proponent for Flickr, whose services I use and quite enjoy. Am I likewise a viral marketer or suckup to Yahoo!?
My vehemence isn’t based on whether anyone questions Paul Barnett or praises Richard Garriott; my vehemence is reserved for people who espouse irrational opinions with self-righteous arrogance.
Because you’ve never been the instigator in the name calling and sly insinuations, right?
Shocka.
It’s not an in-apt analogy, except for one thing: the “in the prime of their lives” bit. Sure, a young Richard Petty would probably wipe the track with his son…but Richard Petty isn’t so young anymore, and in a straight-up Petty vs. Petty match, it wouldn’t be as easy or as prudent to say with irrational confidence that Richard Petty would win the race. He might, and the chance the he might is not indecent. But neither is it a sure bet.
This is not as apt an argument, because Buffet doesn’t really involve himself as much in the design and production processes anymore; he gets rich mostly due to his investments and the large portfolio of companies — across many industries — that Berkeshire Hathaway owns.
And in intellectual ventures (which game design is), age does play a role. Is Garriott past his creative prime? Maybe, maybe not; I’d argue that the jury is still out on that one. Is Barnett past his creative prime? That too is possible, though from what I have seen I don’t think it’s the case.
We won’t know for sure until we have a chance to compare whatever Mythic is cooking up with New Britannia, will we?
So you’ve said. But as has been pointed out before, and again (above), there is not a strict need for a particular revolutionary to be at the helm of a solid Ultima title.
Some have had issues, though I can only really find solid evidence of that in one particular case (Darkness Falls, which — to be fair — was mostly criticized for the lackluster update support that it received, rather than for anything in-game).
Shocka.
That is, indeed, beyond dispute. And indeed, it can be taken as a positive indicator that New Britannia will blow the socks off of any and all other competitors in the same space, including the game Mythic is working on. That’s a possibility.
But saying as much does beg a particular question, in that it requires the automatic assumption that Garriott is still a “Petty in his prime” game developer, rather than a “Petty in the present day” game developer. Is that the case? Maybe, maybe not. We lack sufficient evidence to judge either way.
And that’s what I’d like to stress here: you’re welcome to believe that New Britannia will be the greatest Ultima-like game since Ultima games were last produced by Origin, but that is a belief without a shred of evidence. Whereas, when I say that Mythic can do justice to the Ultima spirit and lore, that is a statement which is informed by evidence, and by having seen what they’re up to.
But my opinion is, of course, the dishonest one.
This is somewhat more open to dispute, depending on how you feel about e.g. Ultima 8 or Ultima 9. (Plus, you’ve already admitted to not particularly liking Ultima 3 through Ultima 5.)
I say: let’s wait for all the evidence (that is, the games that each are working on) to arrive, and then make a comparison.
Or, at least: let’s wait for Mythic’s little venture to arrive, and then let’s play it, and then let’s see what we all think about how authentically Ultima it is.
Either way, let us be objective about it, rather than mindlessly speculative.
I gotta say seeing WtF painted as a RG hater ir rather illarious and ridiculous – hell, he’s one of the most outspoken defender of U9 and trust me – Garriott haters don’t ever defend U9.
@OM Crurator – I wholeheartedly agree. I’ve said it again and again but I certainly hope both Ultima 4ever and New Britannia (or whatever they both ends up being called) ends up being great games that carry on the Ultima legacy. But somehow the Internet seems to think you just need to pit everything against each other.
Ok… I think some people here need to calm down. At this point, you all are just going to keep arguing your point stronger and stronger, getting more and more annoyed, going further away from what you originally intended.
The fact everyone here means I’m guessing everyone has some respect for Richard Garriott. The fact WTF started this site probably means he has quite a lot of it. So, noone is hating on RG. And I think we can all understand a little bit of caution when it comes to a new RG game, since the last three (excluding UO): U8, U9 and Tabula Rasa were not what most people expected (though I do like U8 & U9 personally).
It is also slightly disturbing that he these days seems to put all of the blame on EA and NCSoft. They would not have made many (if any) of the actual design decisions for the games. It almost seems like he has heard “us” (the Ultima community) blame EA so much that he has started to believe it himself. And once all the negative can be placed on someone else, he seems to have forgotten the virtue of Humility. He is “uniquely” capable of leading this next revolution in games? It has been over a decade since he has released a truly epic game. He actually seemed more arrogant in that interview than I am, and that is saying something.
But, again, Richard Garriott made Ultima. So he obiously has the ability. Hopefully that translates into a great game.
As for Mythic… I’m also on the fence for them. They may have made good games, but they haven’t made anything that I would hold up to Ultima standards. Their games might have a lot of things better than Ultima, but Ultima was more about putting things together into a near-perfect package (so any short-comings really don’t matter). Again, I hope they can, but who knows?
At this point, I see very little point in arguing. Those with insider information might want to be a little more careful with their posts as you may have noticed several people in this thread have pointed out they sound a little biased. Those without might want to wait to see what Mythic has done… not liking their previous games is not necessarily a sign of impending doom (…hopefully). None of the people working on a new “Ultima” have a perfect past.
The great screaming tragedy of having inside information is the fact that I really could step out and say “you are truly wrong, and here is an annotated list of specific reasons why” to Micro here…but I’d have to violate my NDA to do so.
And for various reasons both personal and professional, I really am not keen on doing so.
What I find sad and annoying is how on account of having “insider information”, this suddenly makes you a plant sucking up to your evil overlord. Which is even more unfair considering all you have been doing for the Ultima community for years.
Guys – having insider information means just that: information. WtF is certainly not getting paid by EA or some other nonsense as this.
I don’t know much about this game outside of the stuff we have all heard – but I’ve know WtF long before this project ever existed and we tend to see eye to eye in a lot of Ultima things which he’s been so valuable for Ultima Return. So personally if I see a fan like him so excited about this (unlike say Ultima Reborn) even if he can’t share details I think he’s gotta have good reasons to be you know…
This with the already existing proof that Mythic are big Ultima fans is enough to make me feel cautiously optimistic.
Oh well, Ill just blame all this on misplaced jealousy. 😛
So WTF, this is your evil plan, running a fansite for ultima for years and it’s all really a long plan to turn it into RG hatesite, my god you are evil, this is almost the stuff Bond villains are made of ;).
vim: I laughed so hard my wife looked at me funny and Dragonlet #2 got scared.
+500 Internets!
Sergorn: No white cat here…but let me see what I can come up with in Photoshop!
The question is does he has a white cat he strokes constantly?
Wow… that would have been the most awesome evil plan ever… I should start a Final Fantasy site…
Actually, getting back to the video, one thing I noticed was RG seemed to be very keen on selling third-party content. So players create something, can sell it to the community, and RG gets a cut. I’m not sure how I feel about that… It kinda makes it sound a little like Second Life. It doesn’t really sound like an Ultima-ish thing. At least, not a single-player Ultima-ish thing.
It makes me think that RG isn’t creating a traditional Ultima, but going in a new direction like he did with Ultima Online, but more so. I think hoping that he creates an old-school Ultima would be a bad idea at this point. I don’t think we’re going to get a new Ultima story, which is what I think most of us are waiting for. What we’ll get is a new “social” Ultima Online.
To be fair Garriott has reportedly two games in the works at Portalarium – New Britannia which is suppose to be his spiritual successor to Ultima and another one aimed to be released earlier that is supposed to be more casual/social oriented so perhaps this refers more to his second game.
There is little doubt in my mind that his aim is more an UO spiritual successor than an Ultima one though my feeling is that he still wants a strong narrative in it.
Again, it’s a bad analogy, but it’s better than your baseball analogy, which you can’t even explain who is compared to who. Creativity isn’t lost with age. Beethoven’s ninth symphony was written when Beethoven was in his 50’s and is regarded as one of the best.
Lets try being honest for a moment. The reason why you compare Tabula Rasa with DAoC rather than UO to DAoC is because TR wasn’t a successful game, it was probably pretty crappy. Neither RG nor PB were sitting in a cubicle making each title by themselves.
RG has claimed many times that UO was his favourite ultima title. And something he was most proud of.
“My vehemence isn’t based on whether anyone questions Paul Barnett or praises Richard Garriott; my vehemence is reserved for people who espouse irrational opinions with self-righteous arrogance.”
I see, so what was so irrational about my first post? You’ve stated you understood what RG meant when he said Elves, Dwarves and Orcs are not Ultima. You’ve stated you were wrong about the crossbows. And in reference to this statement,
My statement “The amount of games RG is famous for, for doing really well making is about equal to the amount of games mythic has made that were total shovelware.”
Your statement “That is, indeed, beyond dispute. And indeed, it can be taken as a positive indicator that New Britannia will blow the socks off of any and all other competitors in the same space, including the game Mythic is working on.”
So how was I being irrational when you agree and can see from my point of view where I’m coming from in my first statement? And how is my first statement self-righteous? Because I believe I’m right? No one(but you) posts things knowing they are wrong.
Micro:
The most obvious interpretation would be Garriott = Ruth. At least, that was the intent. Sorry you missed it.
I’ve explained my reasoning; you do not seem to have refuted my thinking. My statements stand.
Since you are so fond of asking for sources, I’m going to ask you for one.
Your first post contained numerous statements that were both self-righteously arrogant and easily demonstrated to be, at minimum, factually suspect. Also, your usual irrational conviction that Richard Garriott is a developer whom no other developer could hope to best in even a single venture was readily on display. Note that I’m not saying that the man lacks for talent; he certainly does not. But equally, I am saying that your judgements concerning his certain triumph over a team of very devoted Ultima fans who are trying to resurrect Ultima as a legitimate RPG franchise within EA is premature, given the utter lack of evidence that Garriott has anything planned which even remotely relates to what you would consider to be an authentic Ultima. In like manner, your automatic dismissal of the efforts that Mythic is expending as being inauthentic to the Ultima spirit are similarly premature and without evidence, given that of the two of us, you have not seen the product being worked on.
Because my agreement with individual small points which you have articulated does not constitute agreement with your larger point. I’ve explained this aspect of my reasoning as well.
I get into this above.
Look, I get that you are a die-hard Garriott fan who probably believes that the man can do everything short of walk on water. Fair enough; idolization isn’t my thing, but I’m not everyone. But there are two things I can count on you to do consistently: a) praise any and all of Garriott’s stated* projects as hits-in-waiting that will crush all comers, despite having no information about what he is working on and no evidence of what whatever he is working on looks or plays like, and b) gainsay and look down upon any non-Garriott efforts as being assuredly sub-par shovelware efforts that could not possibly aspire to the vision and glory of Garriott’s works, again despite having no information about the efforts in question and/or despite your open refusal to do any sort of legitimate investigation of said efforts.
Call it what you will; I call it irrational (because it is) and self-righteously arrogant (because you’ll proceed to do everything in your power to tar anyone who questions your opinions as, variously, a “hater”, a “herd” animal, a “viral marketer” or corporate shill, or what have you).
* Note: It’s worth remarking on that Garriott has a bit of a history of stating that he is planning on doing X, Y, or Z projects and then never speaking of such things again, and/or never delivering on them. Pen-and-paper Ultima RPG set, anyone?
Editor’s Note: Micro, if you are going to insist on repeating things you have said verbatim — things I have responded to and either agreed with or repudiated as is appropriate — I’m going to start doing things like this. Do we understand each other?
BTW, I played DAoC to level 10. It was an incredibly boring game. It took several hours to get to that level. As I didn’t merely level grind the entire time. Or power level. It never felt like a living breathing world. It felt like any other mmo where you click buttons and kill anonymous creatures. I never felt rewarded in that game, even when I leveled. Did you play DAoC? If so, how long did you play it?
“I can also produce documentation that affirms that I am, in fact, an employee of a different company which is not in any way, shape, or form affiliated with Electronic Arts or any of its developers. ”
Oh man, you CAN provide documentation? Wow, I’m totally sold! You’re the real deal! That’s like Sergorn saying “I’ve seen RG say it was his fault u8 sucked… but I won’t show you the document of where or when he said it!”
I doubt you would post documentation of your place of employment, and I don’t expect you to.
“Um…yes? I run an Ultima site; those are the links to the companies that own the Ultima name and are working to produce Ultima-related content. How utterly bizarre that I should think to link to them.”
You have UO, Bioware, and EA at the bottom of every page on your website. The mythic site has one link to ultima on it, and that is to UO. Which is redundant. Perhaps you could say the mythic site is on the bottom for the future social media ultima title.
EA website has no direct link to anything ultima. It’s simply EA.com. Unless you type in ultima online, or browse their catalog of games until you find UO. Which is also redundant.
Yes, it is utterly bizarre you link to those 3 website on every page of your website when they are redundant links. And on top of that you neglect to put a Portalarium link at the bottom. You know, the company run by the guy that created Ultima and also has a spiritual successor to Ultima in the works. If you decided to put a Portalarium link at the bottom, I would be slightly less suspicious that this is not viral marketing website.
I did a whois search on this site. And the record shows this site being registered in 2007. The same year you posted your first entry.
Also, I’ve seen viral marketing website where the webmaster posts comments under different pseudonyms in order to build credibility towards one’s own case. And since you communicated to me that you, Sergorn, and Thepal talked to each other about my posts in another thread in private. It seems like you are all either the same person, or you all have a vested interest in discrediting me for some unknown reason. And instead of giving a broad generalization of “you are irrational and self-righteous” why not quote me and explain why it is irrational or self-righteous.
Again, this is either a viral marketing website or you’re sucking up to EA/Mythic as much as you can to get a job with them. Which you stated before you had a desire to work for them.
Micro: Okay, you played a massively multiplayer game for a few hours and didn’t “get” it. That’s like not “getting” DS9 after three episodes; my point stands.
The reason that the links to EA/UO/Mythic appear on the bottom of every page is because this is a WordPress-based site which uses a common template for all pages. Technically, the links only appear in the site code once, in the footer.php file; it just so happens that every page of the site loads the footer. This is done to give the site a consistent visual feel.
You will also note that I haven’t put an Ultima Forever link at the bottom, in addition to not putting a Portalarium link. The reason I haven’t put a Portalarium link is because Portalarium — unlike EA — has nothing to do with Ultima (the franchise/property) and never will.
It is true that the Ultima Aiera domain was registered in 2007; Aiera existed as a subdomain of another site of mine prior to that point. If you look at the old version of the site, you’ll note that the first article is from August of 2004.
It would be a fine conspiracy if Sergorn, Thepal, and I were all the same person…but we aren’t. Heck, we can’t even meet for beers; Sergorn lives in France (and doesn’t drink, I think), I live in Canada, and Thepal lives (I think) in Australia. Sergorn also maintains a site in French; I have no head for languages other than English, and my grasp of French is basically limited to a few cursewords.
As to your first post, I can offer no further explanation beyond what I have already said.
As to your track record of tarring others, I’m referring to your overall conduct on this site from the time you first commented here. I can dig up the various statements under reference if you like, but I trust you know what you said.
And for the record, my reply to your initial comment wasn’t defensive…the tone I was shooting for was “annoyance”.
And as to crossbows and whatnot…I forget things sometimes. Oh. My. God. It’s almost like I’m a fucking human being, right? How weird is that?
Again WTF what was specifically self-righteous about my first post? You have agreed with each of my points, I’ve noted each and how you have agreed with them. My first post was short. They were individual small points that you initially disagreed to, and now each and every one of them you have switched to agreeing with.
What is my larger point? That RG’s game is going to be better than PB’s game? Yeah, I believe that from their track records, which is all I have to go on other than from your hearsay(which is suspect due to your readiness to admit to your dishonesty).
Or is there some sort of different larger point you inferred from my first post, if so, that larger point is purely speculation. I have no other larger points I was trying to communicate.
I’m sure you’re referring to
“I think someone is Big, Fat, Flaming Paul Barnett fanboy and Richard Garriot hata, in the most stereotypical sense of the words..”
As tarring anyone who disagrees with me. This is clearly in reference(and clearly a lighthearted one) to your comment,
“Third, would be be fair to say that you’re a Lord British fanboy, in the understanding that I use the term “fanboy” in its most stereotypical connotation of the word?”
Again, specifically, which part of my first post was minimally, factually suspect, self-righteous, or irrational? Because that is when you got defensive.
If I’m minimally factually suspect, you’re largely factually suspect. You said RG has never given out crossbows! How could you possibly forget that when you talk about Ultima pen and paper rpgs?
Micro: Just what is your agenda here?
Yes I do know what I’ve said on this site. I haven’t “tarred” people, if you can dig up instances and get specific for once, that would be great!
The tone you were shooting for was annoyance? Were you trying to annoy me? That seems rather trollish. But if my first post annoyed you by it’s content, that makes more sense to me than irrational or self-righteous.
You can’t seem to get specific about what it is I’m self-righteous or irrational about. Let me give you an example of how to get specific,
“Also, I think it’s quite possible to argue with the guy who invented Ultima on the point you cite, because I observe that a few different Ultima titles have included exactly those races in the past. Is Garriott repudiating his own work…his own early Ultimas? There’s a troubling thought.”
Matthew states
“Garriott pretty clearly explains this point, don’t understand the confusion”
In response you say,
“I get that Garriott explains himself, and in fact I’m not questioning him at all; I’m questioning Micro and his less-than-apt arguments.”
This shows you being intellectually dishonest, your incoherence, and your willingness to fight. Your second post, shows you understand exactly what Richard Garriott meant when he stated “…orcs are not ultima.”
It’s not coherent to ask me if Garriott is repudiating his own works, when you clearly state you understand what he was saying in the interview.
It’s also not honest to ask the question when you know the answer.
It’s arguing for the sake of arguing when you take a side that you know is untrue.
Ok, that is being specific. Can you be specific WTF? Or am I going to hear more broad generalizations? I’m anticipating you telling me you’ve gotten specific, even though you haven’t. So if you have, PROVE ME WRONG, post in bold an instance where you called me out on irrationality, or self-righteousness that you’ve gotten specific about. Because you obviously haven’t gotten specific and you obviously can’t.
Micro: No, I wasn’t trying to annoy you; I was trying to convey that I was annoyed, myself.
And as to what you’ve been self-righteous and irrational about, I’ve drawn attention to it several times now. I hate repetition, and so I won’t give you a further answer apart from directing you to re-read my posts and actually pay attention to the words I’ve written. I’ve said a lot; you’ve refuted none of it, and indeed have very pointedly avoided commenting on it, for reasons I can only begin to speculate at.
Now, as to the bit that you insist on repeating yourself about, in the mistaken assumption you’ve caught me in a fib, I will simply say this: you said that you can’t argue with the guy who created Ultima about what is and isn’t authentically Ultima; I responded by pointing out that I can in fact raise this issue given Garriott’s own statements about how he views various titles in the series (Ultima 4 in particular). I know he explains himself well on this point; indeed I think you misrepresented him quite a bit in your initial statement.
I’m done explaining this. If you insist on re-repeating yourself on this matter, I will make administrative edits to your comments. You’re not going to gain any ground on this point (and if recent comments are any indicator, you’re losing what little support you had); move on.
P.S. Oh, by the way…it’s actually a perfectly valid tactic to “beg the question” once in a while. If you’ve ever taken classes in rhetoric, or even classes in subjects that feature occasional debates — theology, philosophy, etc. — you should know that.
P.P.S. You’ve tarred a few people in this thread already, with your wild conspiracy theories about how I’m sock-puppeting Sergorn and Thepal, your repeated statements about me. I’m thinking at some point you’ll say something off-colour about Kameleo as well, although that’s just a wild guess that I’ll gladly be wrong about if at all possible.
P.P.P.S. I admitted to being wrong about the crossbows in my very next comment after you pointed out that I was in error. I note that as yet you haven’t admitted to being wrong about the date the site was founded (2007 vs. 2004). But of course, this is just further proof of my dishonesty, right?
So I am both Wtf and Thepal! How come nobody ever warned be before ?
Man, if I was WtF you’d have been banned from here long ago, unlike him I have very little patience for trolls.
Are you being honest or dishonest when you ask me about RG repudiating his own work? If you are being honest, how are you being honest when you acknowledge you understand RG?
Yes, I was unaware of your previous site. That doesn’t mean this hasn’t turned into a viral marketing website, or you sucking up hardcore to EA and mythic.
You haven’t once shown me how I have been irrational or self-righteous in my first post.
You said it was true, which does not make it true. Begging the question is not a -valid- debate tactic.
Those are just buzzwords. And neither did I say you definitely are those two individuals, you are them, or you all have the same vested interests.
You see, I’m a Christian too. I believe Jesus would want me to be an honest individual. I’d like you to be an honest individual too. Besides, it’s a virtue to be honest!
I dunno about the others, but I haven’t talked about this thread with anyone else anywhere… Plus, I tend to disagree with WTF in most arguments 😛 Nor do I have the same interests… Up until this thread I had dismissed Mythic’s offering… WTF’s passion shown in this thread has me slightly more intrigued by it. Personally, I’m currently just looking forward to Skyrim and Mass Effect 3. The chance of a decent Ultima being made by anyone is still kinda small in my opinion.
Nice drama on this post. How long until this blog gets its own Encyclopedia Dramatica page?
Even if Aiera has been coopted into being a “viral” marketing site (what’s viral about it?) – so what? And what’s stopping RG and Portalarium from contacting WtF and initiating a similar relationship?
This isn’t like an Infinity Ward vs Activision situation – there’s no living, breathing franchise being cruelly betrayed by the corporate suits, here. If this blog had been around in 1994 or 1999 and espoused the same views, Micromagic’s fanrange would be more justifiable.
You know, there was far more Garriott bashing between 1994 and the early 2000 (where amongst digruntled fans the popular consensus was that Garriott was basically a fraud and Ultima got good thanks the likes of Warren Spector or Doug Church) over newsgroups, fansites, fan forums and the like that anything ever seen on this site. I wonder where Micromagic was back then 😛
Indeed the only “bashing” here basically consist of a few people (some of which like myself who actually love these games) saying that Garriott also had his share of responsibility for the direction taken by Ultima 8&9 and their issues. Nothing more. And this is no bashing at all, simply commmon sense.
Hell, Aiera has continuously been reporting pretty much everything related to Garriott and his new company ever seen he announced his come back with Portalarium and WtF has been one of the rare persons here not to receive the Portalarium/Social gaming concept with blatant skepticism. Just a week ago he even made a newspost about “A Mystical Land” – a totally unrelated game – solely on account that it used Garriott’s Portalarium tech and served as a showcase of the tremandous potential his New Britannia might have. Hell if anything, this is one of the rare place on the internet where Garriott’s new venture is brought up through newsposts with curiosity, excitement and a clear aknowledgement of its potentiel rather that laugh, disdain or mockery.
There’s definitly no bias against Garriott and Portalarium here except in Micromagic’s mind, if anything this is quite the opposite.
Now that being said… of course WtF shows more excitement about that Mythic project than New Britannia – but how could he not since he’s seen things from this project while we still don’t know anything about New Britannia besides vague concept ? This is only natural and WtF is nothing if not passionante about his videogames – and you can be sure that if New Britannia proves to be as exciting as we all hope, he’ll be the first to say it and defend it against the “anti social games” people.
Micromagic sez:
“Proves your intellectual dishonesty, and your willingness to argue with no provocation.”
Micro-we all get the fact that you’re extremely angry. I’ve read all your posts, and I still am not completely sure on your positions regarding RG or PB. But what I’m absolutely positive of is that you post in these forums to draw people into an argument.
WtF has given you every opportunity to be a gracious host, and you’re abusing it. We all really like a good discourse here, and I think I speak for everyone when I say that we’re all a pretty patient bunch, and can argue our differing views here freely. But you’re points are going far beyond mere opinion, and they’re moving into ‘a-hole territory’.
Just be cool–if you disagree with something, there’s no harm in saying it–but tone it down. Sergorn eloquently wrote my opinions down for me above–WtF is passionate and fair in his opinions about both RG and Bioware. If you don’t agree with that to the point of being incensed–you’re free to go someplace else. You might be kinda new to this Internet-thing, but there’s this term we use called ‘troll’. You’re in WtF Dragon’s house, and pissing on his carpet–don’t do that.
I don’t have any control here, but my opinion is that WtF has contemplated the ban button (and with good reason). But he’s giving you the benefit of the doubt, if only because he *IS* honest–and a pretty cool guy. His passion and hard work have made this one on the most active Ultima news sites on the net. I’ve been giving him stuff to post because I believe in his efforts and his commitment to keeping the games we love alive.
Hang out with us. Dig the atmosphere. Be passionate about Ultima. But troll someplace else. If you need a topic, I suggest politics–it’s a hotbed of emotion, and you don’t even need to have a point to be involved! 😉
Joe
Let me start out by confirming that yes, I am also secretly WTF Dragon. Starting WCHS in 1995 was just a minor part of my elaborate, generational plan to get Paul Barnett to like me in case he ever made a browser-based Ultima game. And you saps bought the whole thing, all while I was rolling in whatever it is you get for paying to run a fan site for fifteen years!
Seriously, though, this is some of the bloodiest fighting I’ve seen since Repleetah days! As goofy as this all is (and will feel to you when you look back at it in a month) it’s actually kind of great that there are still passionate fans who are still willing to go at it tooth and claw over these things. It’s a sign of life for a community that has been quiet all too long.
I’m just here because someone mentioned my site. That’s me, Wing Commander’s Kibo [Kibo was also secretly the Ultima Aeira guy – ed.]
No, I just want to stress for the record that no one on the WCNews staff plugged Arena because Electronic Arts told them to. We love that damn game. I’ve put hundreds of hours into it and I still play regularly and I’m sure my Xbox gamercard can prove that (no one can have the ‘Hot Dog’ achievement and be part of a conspiracy that secretly hates the game but wants to sell things to you). If anything, I’m willing to bet that we cost Electronic Arts a heck of a lot more money on that project than the made off of anyone listening to my crazy rants. Just getting their hopes up, asking for various changes to the design that took more time… and convincing them to create and print Star*Soldier must have set them back more than a few bucks. If they were trying to ‘screw’ us, we’re the ones that ended up getting to keep the prize [that’s… not… how sex works… at all – ed.]
(And in all honesty, I don’t believe EA was trying to market Arena or the Ultima game by showing it early… because EA’s marketing department is an entirely separate beast. For both Arena and the Ultima game, we got sneak peaks because incredibly genuine project leads wanted feedback and were just plain excited to show fans what they’ve been working on. On Arena we found when it was time to work with marketing (which is based on LA) a few months later to do things like promote that contest and do some writing for their website they had absolutely no idea we’d played the game. I think WTF will probably have that same experience.)
But as long as I’m here, I should say that I think WTF is doing a fantastic job in what is honestly a tougher situation than we’ve run into at the CIC. You have EA wanting to put out a new Ultima in one corner and Richard Garriott, who is a hero to everyone here no matter what anyone says, going to Twitter and saying only he can create the heir! What a conflict… and walking a fine line without trying to offend either party is the hardest and MOST REASONABLE thing anyone can do. Your parents are fighting and they both have a toy for you! What would I do if Chris Roberts went out and said he didn’t think Prophecy was a ‘real’ Wing Commander game? I have no idea! (Well, okay, there was clearly a point in time where we had the option of becoming a StarLancer site and we declined… but it was all so polite at the time.)
[Here’s a question: does anybody believe WTF Dragon is trying to push *Lord of Ultima* on you? Wouldn’t he be, if there were some elaborate EA marketing plan? If it were a Wing Commander game then I would have given it a million chances just for using the name. I sure as heck haven’t seen that happen here.]
Just for the record:
Is this the longest thread in Ultimaaiera history?
OMCurator:
I don’t think so, though it must seem like it.
Everyhow: I think I’m going to put Micro into the auto-moderation list until he can act not like a rebellious teenager.
I don’t think it is, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen one split to multiple pages before. Which may happen at 50 comments.
LOAF:
Good guess. This is indeed the way it works.
Yeah it splits page at 50 comments.
I think the longest was that one about EA asking certains site to remove Ultima IV 😛
By giving you guys special access, they had someone out there saying nice things about their game — someone with high Google rankings for the term “Wing Commander.” Doesn’t really matter if they asked you to do it, or if you did it spontaneously (I’m sure it was the latter as you say) — but either way it’s a form of marketing, generating positive buzz for the game.
I think it’s just hard to view insider fans as objective — it’s gotta be fun to be on the inside, but you don’t stay there if you have bad things to say about the product. Nothing sinister, just human nature…
Put it another way: do you think you’d have enjoyed the same level of access if you disliked the game? Because if the relationship is ONLY about soliciting fan feedback then it shouldn’t matter either way, right?
Matt: I can’t speak for LOAF, but my “level of access” didn’t emerge as a result of my being enthusiastic about Mythic’s efforts; my enthusiasm emerged as I began to learn more about it once they took me into their confidence.
They approached me for one reason: this site is big in the Ultima community, one of the most trafficked, and one of the most active in terms of community discussion.
And they wanted input from me and other community members I could connect with and bring to them; people who “give a damn about Ultima” as Barnett himself put it.
Yes, I’m excited about Mythic’s project…but that excitement was caused BY them taking me into their confidence and the information that flowed to me via that channel; it was not what caused them to contact me at first.
They would have had someone out there saying nice things about their game either way, though. I’ve been accused of being an EA mouthpiece on releases where we weren’t even included in the ordinary press blast (most recently: EA Replay)… heck, I’ve been accused of it on a project that EA hated and wanted killed! (Wing Commander Prophecy for the GBA–it was done by an Italian company who then aquired the license by publishing through a third party who had a broad license for porting EA games as GBA releases… EA did not want that game to come out.)
In reality I think the ‘page rank’ bit works in reverse. On Arena we were involved from the first weeks of the project on… because the producer found our site as he was researching Wing Commander. I just don’t believe that they came to us a year in advance of the game’s release with questions about what kinds of ships fans would like to see and wondering when the game should take place and so on because they knew that it would be great press when we liked the game someday. I do not know for sure, but I am guessing WTF’s involvement in the Ultima project is something similar.
(At the risk of inflaming the conspiracy nuts: of all the EA studios I’ve been involved with over the years, the only one that did anything I’d begin to consider sinister was Origin itself. They hosted WCNews.com from 1998-2000 and asked that we not make it common knowledge. I would not agree to that today, but when I was a teenager it seemed really, really cool. They also hosted Stratics as part of the same initiative… I can’t figure out if that’s common knowledge today.)
I don’t see how *anyone* is ‘objective’ in the way you’re thinking, though. Just because the Kotaku/Destructoid/etc. set call themselves “game journalists” doesn’t mean there’s any sort of ethics–it’s a bunch of bloggers fighting for page views and advertising money. There’s no professional gaming press out there that has any sort of responsibility to give you an unbiased opinion.
… and *of course* a Wing Commander fan site is biased towards a new Wing Commander game. That seems like it should go without saying. Anyone who goes to WCNews.com should know in advance that we /like Wing Commander/. Anyone who has followed the site for fifteen years should know that we like *all sorts* of Wing Commander things–we get excited about card games and screensavers and all kinds of geeky things.
And given all that I’ll stand up and shout that I think we’re one of the more objective sources for this stuff. We’re not selling pageviews, we’re not taking donations and we have our own battle-hardened code of conduct that our readers should all know. We’re in it for the love of the game, and I think that’s a better bias to have than anything anyone else brings to the table.
As for your last question: yes, absolutely… because we told them what we hated about the game over and over. This is what Wing Commander Arena looked like when we saw the first screenshots: http://www.wcnews.com/newestshots/full/10.10.34.187-image5.jpg — and we (Chris and I) told them that was crummy just from an XBLA-in-2006 perspective.
The big thing, though, was the story. I don’t want to suggest that we were privy to every part of the development, but we were brought in to make sure continuity was right. We’d see screenshots like the one above when the producer was excited about something, but most of what I did was editing long documents and answering questions about Wing Commander history. So one of the big things we were supposed to talk about was the setting for the game. And they kept saying it’s coming, it’s coming day after day… until finally we got a document from the team at Gaia. And that contained what I would have to say is… the worst thing I had ever seen. Here it is, at the CIC: http://www.wcnews.com/articles/arenabackstory.shtml
I have no idea where it came from. It’s like it was written by someone who maybe read the back of the Wing Commander III box. I mean, Burning Battle? What the hell is that? And it was like three paragraphs! This is what they took weeks putting together? This was a terrible, terrible sign of how the game was goine. So I called Chris up as soon as we had read the e-mail and we had an incredibly uncomfortable conversation about what we should do. We needed to express to the producer that not only was this not good that it was… offensively bad. It just plain sucked. And as you indicated, we felt kind of bad doing it–would they not want us involved any more? Were we hurting somebody’s feelings who was important to the future of the franchise we love? But we had to do it, the Burning Battle was just too stupid.
I have the e-mail right here, it starts “Listen, I’m sorry I have to say this… but this is terrible. Wing Commander fans are going to hate this.” And the happy ending (for us at the time anyway) was that they were completely cool with hearing that–he asked Gaia for a different story pitch and we got it a few days later and it was just night and day.
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that there’s more to all this than you’re thinking… these previews aren’t just some just some chance for fans to fawn over a game and feel special (and yeah, you do feel special–but I felt special before!)… it’s important and necessary feedback.
I don’t know what’s wrong with Arena today. I still love it. I honestly don’t understand why other people don’t. I think it’s an amazingly fun little game and I sure wish they’d asked someone other than me about it so they could have predicted some of the reaction. There’d be a developer that was still in business and probably an amazing producer who still had a job if that were the case. My gut feeling from reviews is that it got killed because it wasn’t a space sim with Mark Hamill, which I don’t think is a fair criticism (find me one of those for-profit sites that actually points out the broken replay option instead of complaining about the lack of Biff in their review and we can talk about who’s being objective!).
Hi,
I’m also another alias of wtf. Hell, i’m sure that Even Micro is another fragment of my mind. Funny thought… But not surprising when you regard Wtf as a dishonest RG hater…
Nice drama here and good to read that others recognized the trollish nature after I called it the first time (in another thread a long time ago…).
Good call on the micro-moderation 😉
Loaf, I like your post! I especially like your comment that,
“There’s no professional gaming press out there that has any sort of responsibility to give you an unbiased opinion.”
Which is why I tend to read player reviews and take player scores into more regard than gamespot or ign.
Editor’s note: Note that LOAF did not exactly say that fans are necessarily any more objective in the general case.
There’s nothing honest about taking statements out of context. How is it honest to ask a question when you know the thesis is incorrect?
Is it an inflammatory statement to say someone is a fanboy in the most stereotypical way? Is it being trollish to turn that statement around in a lighthearted manner? I’m sure by calling me a troll you’re trying to annoy me in some way. Oh well, I’ll just level headedily ask you some questions.
Editor’s note: Since Micro can’t seem to shut up about my apparent “dishonesty”, I’m giving him an assist here in doing so (as I said would happen).
TBH I’m not excited about any social media game. I doubt I will like either RG’s or mythics, but from Paul saying he’s working on randomly generated dungeons on his secret project, it makes me a lot less optimistic. Has randomly generated dungeons ever been a staple of the Ultima franchise?
Editor’s Note: Early on, yes. The larger question is: does the nature of the dungeons as static or generated absolutely define whether a game is authentic to the Ultima tradition?
As I’ve stated before, I’m not excited about a social media ultima. But I am pleased to see the franchise being resurrected. It may be a popular game, and I hope it does well financially so we can see a new single player ultima with RG at the helm :P/.
Editor’s note: This would require Garriott to return to EA, whether at Mythic or another studio. Would you like to see that happen?
I have more faith in RG owning his company and publishing his own games. Also I have more faith in RG’s track record than mythics due to my own experience. BTW how many hours do I have to play a game before i “get it”?
Editor’s note: Point to ponder…if it’s dishonest to ask “begging the question”-type questions, how honest is it to ask questions which have, at once, no answers and an infinite number of answers?
I would say that a lot of games take a while to “get”. Ultima 6 was my first Ultima (and the first game we got with a computer that could do more than 16 colours and had actual speakers). I didn’t get it. It was so much more complicated than any game I had ever played, and I gave up after a very short time.
What might have been a year or two later, I tried it out again. At this point I was a little more experienced with games and was able to make a bit more of a go at it. After weeks of playing it, I finally started to “get it”. And the rest is history. If I had have just gone with my original opinion, I would never have played any other Ultima games. Instead, I tried it again and am now, I think I can safely say, one of the bigger Ultima fans out there.
MMOs tend to be very similar. I haven’t given up on any like I did with Ultima 6, but my opinions have changed a lot over the course of play. The first day I usually don’t know what is going on and am just exploring the game. The second day, I have a bit more of an idea what it is about. The first month I tend to play in a way that seems fun. A couple of months later, I’ll have chosen a completely different way to play it.
Some games (usually based on their complexity) take a while to “get”. MMOs are traditionally complex. I’ve never played DAoC. It might be so bad that you can tell in an hour that it is no good. I don’t really know. But from experience I would say that there are many games that do require a longer period of play to really get a feel for them.
(speaking of which, does anyone here like the first Witcher game? I tried playing it for a few hours, and didn’t really get into it due to its pretty annoyingly horrible controls and gameplay. Just wondering if I should put the effort into continuing, or go back to playing through the Assassin’s Creed games)
It’s funny you should mention the Witcher since I’m actually playing it right now.
I started a first playthrough a few years go, I liked it but Fallout 3 came in the middle of it and well… in the end I never got back to the Witcher.
I’m definitly intent on going through it this and go straight to the Witcher 2 since it sounds to be quite exceptionnel and could very well be a new landmark in term of CRPGs.
Might I ask what are your isues with controls and gameplay ?
I’m playing with the over the shoulder perspective and I find it very effective – certainly no controls issue. I haven’t toyed much with the overhead view, but arguable it seems amongst the best Aurora-derived engine has to offer (no camera issue à la NWN2…)
I’m also loving the combat system – I’ve seen a lot of complain about it and I just don’t get it. The stance and combo approach is very well thought out and allows quite a bit of variety. As far as Aurora-derived games goes I think it’s the best combat systems I’ve seen in this engine, much more fun than the real time with pause Bioware approach
(That being said, play through the AC games too, they are awesome!)
That’s cool, but I’m guessing that was in private. If you publicly had bad things to say about Arena, I’m not convinced they’d be so quick to work with you in future. That’s the bias I’m talking about, not that WC fans are more likely to enjoy WC games — but that connected fans have a bit more at stake than the typical gamer when they talk about a product online. I think that’s where it could become very tempting to bite one’s tongue a bit in order to keep the relationship going.
But I’m not suggesting that’s the case for either game, and I think we’re going around in circles. I just feel that it behooves connected fans to make those connections as transparent as possible so readers can make up their own minds. Otherwise they’re left to wonder — or worse, left in the dark.
Love The Witcher, but I could see where it would be too action-oriented for some, and not looty enough for others. Story was a nice change of pace, and the moral choices aren’t as painfully obvious as they are in most games.
Matthew: Even if you are correct…what’s your angle in pressing the “bias” button so damn hard? “Praise in public, criticize in private,” is a very excellent principle when dealing with students, employees, co-workers…and, yes, companies that approach you asking for input about this neat thing they’re working on.
Yeah, I’m not going to launch into an emotional rant about how EA kills game franchises and companies on the site here…and the chief reason I won’t is because it’s just not true anymore, and even when it was truer (in the “bad old days”) it wasn’t the whole truth. Yeah, now, I don’t particularly wish to alienate Mythic either, but that’s a bit down the list of reasons. Even during the days when I wasn’t particularly keen on EA (you can find the articles in the deep archives of the site), I didn’t exactly go to great lengths to cast aspersions on EA’s name.
Update: Also, there’s one other consideration in play as regards public vs. private criticism of games known to be in development. I’m sure LOAF has been under NDA before; I am at present. If there was some aspect of Mythic’s game I wanted to raise issue with, that fact would (or could, at least) prevent me from making my criticisms public. And that’s not bias; it’s just legal prudence.
Thepal: That’s a good point; it took me months to figure Ultima 6 out. And lo…’tis my favourite game! Heck, I really enjoy Hero’s Quest (or Quest for Glory, if you prefer), and I don’t even remember how long it took me to clue in to something so basic as having to use thrown rocks to knock the bird’s nest down. I scoured the whole map looking for rope or a ladder, something to help me climb the tree!
You’re also right that sometimes, it takes returning to a game to really appreciate it. That’s actually true of a lot of things — books, movies, some people…and it’s a fine reminder that it’s not always best to entirely define one’s opinion on things by any single experience thereof.
The Witcher is awesome. I wish that I could bake bread and sit in chairs though. Fallout 3 was awesome as well. I could sit in chairs, though there are loading zones…
I just can’t win. Time to fire up Ultima VII.
WTF, I luckily found a copy of Hero’s Quest on ebay recently. It sits on my Sierra shelf next to the VGA QFG remake. Great series…