In a previous decade, Origin would have dominated this sort of list
By which, of course, I mean a list of the top ten games of the previous decade. Were it a list about the period between…say…1990 and 2000, you’d basically have every main-series Ultima title on the list…probably with Serpent Isle in the top spot. (I’m a big boy; I can admit that.)
Here, it’s BioWare (predictably?) who snap up four of the ten spots, and for four very worthy games at that. You could maybe argue that some of the entries on the list are as much a reflection of the merit of the series that the game is part of as of the game itself, and I’m sure everyone who comments on this article will have a title in mind that the list failed to include. (I do!)
Is BioWare the new Origin? I suppose that’s something that could, in a sense, be argued, but only in a limited sense. Origin was great for many reasons, and not just for the generally high quality of the titles they turned out. They were great for that reason too, but their real power was (as I think has been discussed on the site previously) in their versatility. Origin could make a fantasy RPG, a Jane’s Air Combat title, a sci-fi action flight simulator, or a first-person adventure/RPG, and make it rock. There really isn’t a studio (that I can think of) like that today.
Obsidian gets no mention on this list so in two words: Epic Fail.
Ditto for the absence of Vampire Bloodlines and Arx Fatalis from this list.
Neither DAO nor NWN deserves a mention. NWN was a great toolset but really mediocre as a game. DAO was good but very generic. What it set out to do it did well but there was nothing particularilly outstanding about it. Hell if another Bioware game deserved a mention that most certainly was Jade Empire!
Kudos for mentionning Gothic but Gothic II deserved it more. Or even Risen.
Also if I were to mention one JRPG Id probably go with Lost Odyssey and definitly not Kingdom Hearts.
And on a side note the decade actually started in 2001 so no game released in 2000 should have been mentioned.
Now there’s a beautiful list of nitpicks. 😉 Though actually, I agree with you more than not.
When I was commenting about how in some cases, entries on the list seemed almost to be there because of the power of a series, I was thinking in part of Gothic, and in part of NWN, since I think the sequels to both are what should really have made the list, at least in terms of overall game quality. (Fallout 3 is also, arguably in this category; it’s really there more because it set the stage for Obsidian to rock that IP.)
But then…no first entries, no sequels. I don’t begrudge the inclusion of either all that much.
And I did notice the absence of Jade Empire. Fortunately, lists of this nature aren’t particularly definitive. Granted, you’d still see BioWare do very well on similar lists produced by other sources, and ultimately the point I wanted to make is that if there is a studio today that a) deals in RPGs and b) churns out quality piece after quality piece, that studio is — today — BioWare; in a previous decade, it would have been Origin.
And unlike BioWare, Origin didn’t just do RPGs well.
Well NWN2 really has nothing to do with the first one except of the setting so its somewhat different of say… Gothic.
This is true of Fallout 3 as well as this was a semi reimagination of the license. Also: Fallout 3 was an awesome game – and while New Vegas was great too I wouldnt agree on the account (mostly spread by Bethesda haters really) that its a better game. They has a somewhat different approach to the license but both equally valid. So its not quite like NWN or even Gothic.
Regarding the comparison to Origin I think there is also one major difference even if we just stick to RPG. Bioware offer variety of settings and gameplay. Origin RPGs were basically Ultima. Granted they tried some other stuff in the 80 like Space Rogue, Bad Blood, Knights of Legend, Time of Lore… But none could reasonnably be called a classic and the fact they never turned into series is telling.
I’m a Bioware hater in the sense that they crank out the same game with different instanced scenery that you can’t fully explore along with the same formulaic foozles, romances, game play, and plot. What also is weak about Bioware games is that there is no real moral dilemma or consequences that really confront the player if a player started down an evil or traitorous path in contrast to a great game like Ultima V (vanilla and Lazarus versions) which incidentally happens to be my favorite Ultima game. I still remember how shocked I was when Blackthorn executed Iolo by guillotine. One, it blew my mind and two, I felt actual grief that one of my comrades was killed (semi-permanently). I felt the same with Dupre’s final sacrifice in Serpent Isle.
Granted, Bioware has great supporting characters that are voiced well and the writing is decent in terms of the banter amongst the characters (Baldur’s Gate 2, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect, KotOR) but when I attempt to play these games I find myself asking “Didn’t I play this before?” I will say that the choice of killing the kid in Dragon Age: Origins was done well and was brave on Bioware’s part, but hey, we’ve been killing kids since the Ultima days (well I’ve always run from them).
Sure, the Ultimas had characters only come to life from U5 to U7 ( U8 and U9 seemed to have cardboard cutouts for characters) but it was Sosaria/Brittania as a persistent setting that we watched evolve that made it as much an important character as the companions of the Avatar or Lord British. I can’t say the same for the worlds of the Bioware games or Bethesda games.
Oh, and I agree with Sergorn about Vampire: Bloodlines not making the list. That was a cool game that suffers from the above I mentioned about Bioware games but it had an atmosphere that pulsed with vitality. I also need to mention that I could never get into Morrowind or Oblivion (although I did make a serial killer character that killed and stripped all non-human NPCs he came across). I also could never get into the Gothic series either but I may give it another go someday.
So, yeah, I agree that Origin would have dominated because not only did they have the Ultima series but they had the Wing Commander series which although more of a space sim than an RPG, it had memorable characters and RPG elements as well.
Honestly, I don’t have much to say against that list. Sure, mine might be a little different, but I’m guessing they were ranking them based on a wide range of features. NWN for its modability and community for example. I wouldn’t personally put the vanilla game anywhere near games like KOTOR or Mass Effect.
If it was just on the game itself, then I’d have to throw my support towards Vampire: Bloodlines making an appearance as well (for those that haven’t heard yet BTW… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Darkness#WoD_MMORPG – World of Darkness MMO).
I’m gonna have to argue against the “Ultima would pwn Mass Effect, etc” point of view though. Especially when it comes to morals. When I play Mass Effect I actually think about every moral decision I make. In Ultima, I tended to search every character’s drawers looking for gold so I could afford to buy things I needed. In Mass Effect, doing bad things has an effect. In Ultima… it doesn’t really (apart from gathering virtues/karma for leveling).
The characters also have a lot more depth in Mass Effect. As someone who has gone through every line of dialogue for every character in every Ultima game multiple times, I’m suprised at the fact the characters I thought had so much depth actually had only a dozen or so lines in the game. Serpent Isle is a perfect example. I played that thinking “Wow! I’m adventuring with the Avatar’s three best friends and feel like I really know them”. But looking at it now, they literally have about 3 conversation topics. “join”. “leave”. “bye”. Iolo has “songs” too. They do chime in throughout the game at a variety of places, and you get some of Shamino’s background (which was bloody awesome), and Iolo is searching for his wife (also awesome), and Dupre does his thing (also also awesome). But during general gameplay… they are just kinda there.
After finishing my Serpent Isle remake (as a 1:1 remake), the first thing I want to upgrade (if I decide to put more time into it after it is done) is the companions (well… after getting it voice-acted). I couldn’t believe when I started making my remake that Shamino and Dupre literally have no dialogue when you talk to them. Boggles the mind.
Quoth Thepal: “The characters also have a lot more depth in Mass Effect.”
It’s interesting that you mention Shamino’s background story, Thepal, because it’s kind of an instructive comparison. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great story and it adds a tremendous depth to the character…but you have to get through seven and a half Ultima games to hear about it!
Spend some time talking to any of the companions in Mass Effect, or polish off Garrus’ recruitment mission in Mass Effect 2 and you’ll find a deep-running character with as much (if not more) backstory. The same is arguably true of RPGs like Fallout 3 and New Vegas to some extent, and even Dragon Age excels at this.
Sergorn has it right: “Ultima games had great depth for their time.” And where they fell short, they encouraged our imaginations. If they have one key advantage over modern RPGs, it is that.
These are valid complaints about Bioware. It’s true that ever since KOTOR, Bioware games tends to be very formulatic, with their plot following similar patterns, and their NPC usually using the same archetypes over and over again.
I would also agree for the most part about the moral dilemas bit, since this really has never been Bioware’s forte (morale depth and thought provocking choices has always been more Black Isle/Troika/Obsidian’s thing) and their games tend to be very black&white with the Evil aspect usually very caricatural. I say for the most part though, because I would count the Mass Effect games as an exception. It’s still a far cry from what Obsidian can churn out, but it’s a lot more subtle than what Bioware is used and Mass Effect 2 actually left me speechless on my screen while thinking of a choice more than once – which says a lot.
However I have to say: bringing Ultima as an exemple of morale dilemas ? I mean… REALLY ?
Look I love Ultima dearly, they were very well written et developped gamse for their times, and brought interesting and sometime thought provcking thematics along with a strong set of Ethics. But morale dilemas. I’m sorry but there is NO such thing in any of the Ultima games I’ve played. The only occurence of actualy moral dilemas there exist in Ultima… is basically the character creation process: which does put you against choice and difficult acts. But guess what ?
This does not exist ingame.
And how could it? To offer moral dilemans, a game would need to offer choice – and Ultima offered extremly little of these. Sure you were free to go where you wanted, sometime do thing in one order or another… but in the end you were stuck to doing the plot and finishing the game the only way it was possible too: and that involve little choice or moral dilemas to speak (indeed one of the rare morale dilemas I can think of is in Ultima IX as a matter of fact: when you have to choice about killing or not that poisoned little girl in Terfin). This is actually the biggest missed opportunity of th Ultima series: the character creation gave a wonderful exemple of what the games could (should ?) have been about, with the fundation to create various moral dilemans throughout the games. But it never happened. Ironically the only game who actually did thought of doing that was Ultima X – which was an online game to boot!
I’ll stand with my sandbox a bit and say one thing: Ultima fans tend to completly overblow and overestimate the depth of the Ultima games. And especially Ultima VII. For instance did you know that the length of a regular dialogue in Ultima IX (which was often critized by fans for its short dialogue which killed any depth) is pretty much the same as a regular dialogue from Ultima VII ? And yet it’s true!
We need to stop looking back at this series through pink colored glasses. Ultima games had great depth for their time. And what they sometime lacked in depth, we compensated through imagination. But pretty much any modern RPG would put them all to shame.
The only Ultima games that would somewhat support the comparison to a modern RPG would be Lazarus and to a much lesser degree, Serpent Isle. The others have just aged, as they should have.
That list shoul be called (with 2-3 exceptions) list of the most boring RPG-like experiences .. Oblivion – big, empty, boring world, Diablo – WTH is connecting this game with RPG?
I’m afraid that genre of RPGs died with Ultima series and then second time – selling Fallout brand to Bethesda…
Diablo is a RPG. A hack’n slash RPG of course, but still a RPG none the less. RPG aren’t limited to only one form of games – you’d obviously couldn’t compare Diablo to Ultima VII (though I guess you could compare it to Ultima VIII :P) but they still belong into the RPG genre none the less.
And I can’t disagree more about Fallout – Fallout 3 was awesome game who brillantly translated the Fallout experience to the 3D world. And New Vegas expended brillantly upon it. Fallout couldn’t be in better hands and I’m eagerly looking forward to Fallout 4.
Shamino feels kind of a missed opportunity in Serpent Isle too.
Now don’t get me wrong, Serpent Isle provides what is the best uses of companions in the core Ultima series: they don’t feel like armed pack mules, they have a role to play in the story, they shime in often in the dialogue and not just for silly one liners so it works very well (the only other games who trully did that in the series were the Worlds of Ultima games)
And yet you can’t talk to your companion basically, you can’t discuss of anything with them. I mean Shamino is a dear old friends you’ve known for years… don’t you think once you learn from Birin this used to be his land he would like to… you know, discuss about this ? And it certainly would have been doable back then so I’m not quite sure why they never bothered giving more dialogues to the companions.
Oh well.
I know somebody who’s complaint about Bioware is that their characters are too deep, or rather, faux-deep. Overly quirky and overcharacterized.
Shamino, Iolo and Dupre were just regular men and buddies, and that had a certain appeal.
Overcharacterisation can be a problem I guess – not every single companion NEEDS to have a deep personnal mystery to be solved.
But a lot of Ultima companions barely had any personality to begin with, and was usually very inconsistent from one game to the next so it’s not exactly a better approach.
Not a fan of Bioware games. Too movie like for me. Sorry Kenneth
No mention of arcanum or wizardry 8?
Quoth WTF: “It’s interesting that you mention Shamino’s background story, Thepal, because it’s kind of an instructive comparison. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great story and it adds a tremendous depth to the character…but you have to get through seven and a half Ultima games to hear about it!”
You’re preaching to the choir. Shamino had no depth until Ultima 6 (in which he was an almost depth-less hippy). His personality then changed for Ultima 7 into what we all know and love. Then he was gone in 8 and reverted back to his Ultima 6 personality for Ultima 9. Not only did the companions not have a developed personality, but it changed every game for some of them. Playing through the series when I was younger: I didn’t notice. Replaying them now I wonder how I had these fully formed people in my mind. I guess that was the beauty of old games… You were able to let your imagination fill in the details.
Mass Effect’s characters are so my more in-depth. But I don’t really like the formulaic way they put them in game. They each stand in one spot of the ship. They each say something after certain missions. They each have a special mission you need to complete to become better friends. Despite them all being completely different people, you feel like you’re just doing the same thing with each which takes away from them.
From what I remember, KOTOR seemed to work a little better, but still did pretty much the same thing. Dragon Age does it a little better again, I think (though most of their character building still happens in their stand spot in camp).
Bioware has the best example of characters I’ve ever seen in a game, but there is still improvement to be made.
This might sound weird considering I’ve spent huge amounts of time recreating Ultima games, but I still think Ultima did some things better than any game since. Characters… not so much. But my imagination filled in the blanks so that I still remember everyone’s name in the world from most Ultimas (so, hundreds of people), and their personalities (all from four or five lines of dialogue from some). From Oblivion… I would struggle to name five.
@Thepal
It’s funny you take Shamino as an exemple. He’s actually one of the rare companion which I feel has remained consistant throughout from Ultima VI to Ultima IX. I was actually baffled by Shamino in Ultima IX, right up to his look and voice – they just perfectly nailed it to me.
I feel on the whole the “Big Three”, meaning Iolo, Dupre and Shamino are the only companions who have remained consistant in the series, even in Ultima IX on the whole. All the others though… Sentri, Jaana, Mariah, Julia, Geoffrey, Katrina the felt like different characters each time… and they looked different too!
I think we forgave all this because really: it was new to have characters coming back from one game to another. Which is also why people were less forgiving of Ultima IX – it had a loose continuity like old Ultima, but came at time where continuity had became much more important in videogames.
Regarding Bioware, you’ve basically summ it up pretty well.
KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect they all follow the same formula for companions: you finish a quest/planet/Region… and you’re back at your ship or camp and you get the new conversation with your companions which open up “background dialogue N°2…3…4”. Mass Effect 2 varies things a bit but it remains mostly the same.
I feel it was more effective in KOTOR… because it was the first time really. This is a shame they just stuck to this because when you look at Baldur’s Gate 2 it wasn’t like this, and companion development happened randomly throughouth the game (even if at awkward times sometimes).
I think Obsidian really nailed it when they introduced their Influence system in KOTOR2 and Neverwinter Nights 2. Because it felt more organic since it was no longer tied to the plot, but to how you hanlded your companions. They had secret to discover, sometime quests… but it was all tied to influence not to “get back to the camp and we’ll talk!” and indeed you could unlock new stuff anywhere in the game. Now the downside was of course that it’s pretty much impossible to unlock everything for everyone in a single play through since this all depends on how you decide to play your game… but this is what helps make it feel more real and the companions more memorable.
Dragon Age Origins actually take the influence systems from Obsidian and works mostly the same way – altough discussions moving forward still happens at camp. However they pretty much rendered the influence system pointless by implementing “Gift” which are items you can offers your companions to increase their influence.
What can I say. Obsidian still remains King.
DAII will reportedly changes things a bit about companions so we’ll see how that goes.
Regadint Oblivion I’d have trouble naming NPCs as well… but that’s because there are so many of them. I do remember some memorable ones even if their names escapes me. I felt Oblivion handled NPCs well considering how many there are – at least they all had an unique line of dialogue at minimum and didn’t felt like reading an Excel sheet like in Morrowind. Fallout 3 is very good in that aspect though so I look forward to even better things in Skyrim.
You know Oblivion is actually one of those games you could fill things with imagination – but I feel in the era of 3D and Full Speech, players don’t want to use it anymore.
I wonder WHY Origin chose to make Iolo, Shamino and Dupre the “chief companions”? Why those 3 out of the 8?
Was it a huge coincidence that those 3 were chosen to become your initial party in Ultima 6, and from there on became the most important ones in the subsequent games?
Hmm, actually, in Ultima 5 you started the game with Iolo and Shamino, but not with Dupre (who isn’t even the best character to take, I’m pretty sure). So at least those two were a holdover from U5, but that still doesn’t answer the question.
Well…let’s see.
Shamino is another Richard Garriott alter-ego, so there’s a big, bright reason why he is one of the main ones.
Iolo is David Watson, who wrote Stones and much of the other tunes that graced the Ultima series.
Dupre is Greg Dykes, a close personal friend of Richard Garriott. He runs Custom Creations, an Austin-based company that I believe manufactured all manner of trade show displays and whatnot for the folks at Origin.
So, at a guess, it’s because those three were, in their real lives, men who were were very close to either Ultima or its creator.
What WTF said. Those three were perhaps the three Garriott cared about most.
Or, on the other hand, it might have just been to give the player a variety of companions. Paladin (Truth, Courage), Bard (Love), Ranger (Truth, Love, Courage). The virtues themselves don’t mean a lot, but the skills they have are based off of them. And as you mentioned, Shamino and Iolo played a large role in Ultima 5, and Dupre might have been chosen to balance out the party.
Whatever reason there was behind the decision, it seemed to work well.